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Help with teaching a kid


m3838

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Hi. I'm asking for help from some professionals in psychology and those with experience with teaching young children.

My kid just can't memorize the stave. We tried picture books, coloring schemes, and other tricks.

My latest was to represent the stave with 4 pencils. It works very well, when she looks at pencils, and F,A,C,E that are glued by G,C,D is easy.

But then, when she's looking at the stave, it's a blank stare.

An interesting observation: she will always mix A and C. Between second D and E she'll mix them too. She can find notes on the keyboard with no problem. When the stave is clearly showing ascending melody, she'll play descending and vice versa.

Her math is bad, but her spelling is beyond average, at 7 she is reading fluently in English and pretty fast in Russian, excellent drawer, great voice and definite talent for dancing.

She is small for her age, malnurished and suffers from eczema (no astma, nock nock nock). Has excellent stamina, despite her small statue, and generally is very loud, happy, "singy", smyly, dancy and likes to tell everybody how much she loves them. A chatter box and social butterfly.

All the info above is for those in the health field, to gather some clues and rule out some common cliches.

I would really appreciate help and my little Danielle will appreciate it too.

Thanks.

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My kid just can't memorize the stave. We tried picture books, coloring schemes, and other tricks.

My latest was to represent the stave with 4 pencils. It works very well, when she looks at pencils, and F,A,C,E that are glued by G,C,D is easy.

But then, when she's looking at the stave, it's a blank stare.

An interesting observation: she will always mix A and C. Between second D and E she'll mix them too. She can find notes on the keyboard with no problem. When the stave is clearly showing ascending melody, she'll play descending and vice versa.

She is small for her age,

suffers from eczema (no astma, nock nock nock).

Sounds like me. :) lol! Tell your daughter I sympathise.

I have similar problems 'memorising' I think I'm dispraxic....unless there's such thing as a musical dislexia. ;)

That's why I write things out in my own way that I can understand.

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I had exactly the same experience as a child. When I was about 8 or 9 I had piano lessons where the starting point for teaching was to learn the stave, all the mnemonics etc, I learned about sharps and flats, I was shown how these related to the piano keyboard. I can see the logic of that approach looking back with 50 years of hindsight, but at the time all it did was put me of music for the next 30 years. Then I discovered that there are other ways to learn. I discovered for myself that it is possible to learn to play an instrument by using my ears as the starting point. From then on I have never looked back. I now play in a dance band, and earn a little of my living from playing and teaching.

 

My unscientific take on this is that there are probably people who are naturally inclined to learn by ear, and others who find working from notation suits them better. As an adult one can rationalise this and work round your own strengths and weaknesses. A small child can't and if frustrated just give up, like I did. I would suggest Micha that you might help your daughter to get started by taking a different approach, leave the notation for a while and see how she gets on by learning to play tunes that she can sing. Later on when she wants the challenge of learning more complex arrangements there will be plenty of time to introduce staff notation, and it will then have a purpose that she understands.

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Sounds like you should lighten up. Nothing personal but if you persist you'll probably give the kid a life-long aversion, if not to yourself, certainly to music. As the man in the song says,

 

Hey teachers: Leave the kids alone!!

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Whilst learning the letter names can be important in music theory and important when talking about notes, the letters actually impose a translation level between the note as written, the sound, the button it translates to on the instrument, and the sound of that button. That is a lot of steps for a young mind that thinks music is about sound, to interpose.

Any but not all these steps can be dispensed with, and the quickest and most intutive route for a child might be to simply match sounds and buttons, and as interest in the instrument develops, to re-introduce the dots and the letters. Or use the approach of the old tutor instruments and letter the buttons. But whatever, I'd agree with backing off and not sweating the detail.

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My unscientific take on this is that there are probably people who are naturally inclined to learn by ear, and others who find working from notation suits them better. As an adult one can rationalise this and work round your own strengths and weaknesses. A small child can't and if frustrated just give up, like I did. I would suggest Micha that you might help your daughter to get started by taking a different approach, leave the notation for a while and see how she gets on by learning to play tunes that she can sing. Later on when she wants the challenge of learning more complex arrangements there will be plenty of time to introduce staff notation, and it will then have a purpose that she understands.

 

:lol: I had piano lessons as a child too and had to be locked in the room to make me practice :lol: Never did get the hang of sight reading but 20 years later when I picked up a concertina I found that I could pick out tunes quite easily without the dots infront of me. If the tune was already 'in my head' then it was a fair bet that I could find the right buttons to push to play it. If I'm learning a new tune I always find it easier to hear it first before looking at the dots if they're available so I'd definitly put myself in the learning by ear camp :D ...... which is probably why I play tunes in unexpected keys :lol:

Let your daughter play tunes she knows and when she wants to learn new tunes from the dots play them through for her so that she can match the tune in her head to the pattern of notes on the page but don't push her, she'll learn more if she's happy going at her own pace :)

Edited by annl
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When the aids aren't there, could she simply be imagining the letters reading downwards, so getting everything inverted?

F

A

C

E

 

Think about how vertical signs are naturally set. It would be unusual to see this sign:

E

F

A

C

 

but not this one:

C

A

F

E

 

Which one do you find easier to read?

 

If she was, then when the stave is 'showing a clearly ascending melody' she would read it as descending! I've no idea and no experience to back this up, so it's just a thought....

 

Having said all that, I have known about FACE for decades and still really struggle with it and have to work my way from a know position on the stave by saying the letters in order if I really want to know what the dots mean (which is not very often), and I really struggle with the notes that are on the lines! I am trying to match the buttons of my concertina with the dots, as a purely useful challenge for me aged 59, but I would have chucked the instrument away if someone had tried to get me to do that as a child, so I would agree with all the others about not making the written notation too important at this stage.

 

Good luck with encouraging your happy sounding daughter to enjoy her music!

 

Pete

 

p.s. I used to teach maths and found similar things with that - there were plenty of children with informal methods of calculation who got into a terrible muddle if you tried to get them to perform a standard method, however well you showed that method. They just didn't 'see it' that way!

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Are you certain she "can't" memorize the staff? Maybe, at 7, she's just not ready. Sometimes this kind of stuff won't come to a person for a long time - then suddenly one day it can "click" and the person can't remember what the fuss was. I had difficulty (5th grade) memorizing multiplication tables - couldn't do it. My classmates did, I just couldn't do the instant recall as fast or easily as they did. I worked out an alternate "count and add" approach that let me calculate the answers in my head fairly quickly. I passed the class and the teacher never suspected. Years later as an adult in my twenties, something went "click" and I now have no difficulty - basic usage got those tables into my head.

 

For this reason I would suggest letting go of the theory - still try a little reading every practice, but don't work it too hard. Try showing how the notes are related as intervals. Show how starting at one line and going to the next space means moving over one key or going from one line to the next line means moving up or down two keys. If she looks at those dots as a pattern of movement up/down whatever instrument, maybe something will click...

 

In all likelihood, repetition and time will do the trick. After all, she's only seven.

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Thanks for all who answered.

We are teaching her not CDEF... but Do Re La Ti ..., and have russian teacher. For a purpose of having her learn some high level Russian, not just "Kitchen family slang", because she is the type that adapts eagerly, and her Russian is already suffering. As one, who raised American-born child, show is fluent in Russian, English and French, I want my younger one to follow that direction. So FACE wouldn't work, unless I will give up and transfer everything to letters.

But other suggestion, to let the theory go and turn towards sort of "Suzuki" method makes more sense to me. The problem is to find a teacher, who will agree to it.

Unfortunately most (all that I know) conservatory trained pianists look down on Suzuki method. I wanted her to learn slide guitar, so she would use stylos and picks to play as her fingers and palms are often affected by eczema (She often has to play in little home-made gloves to relieve the itch). But having super-duper upright at home and availability of teachers ....

I'll try to talk to her teacher and will report back here.

Thanks.

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You can come over as a bit blunt David but in this case I think you may be right.

 

Mischka -- Let her learn to make music first by using the keyboard etc then play with others then get the theory using all the tricks you can use. Birds just need to sing and hear other birds. Can she hold a tune if you sing or play it?

 

As i language, we need to learn to communicate, then make intelligible noises, then speak simple words and express some innate rules before we learn to read and finally spell 'properly' in the cuture in which we live.

 

The image of a neon sign saying CAFE in vertical letters in a street , rather than EFAC was very vivid. Great one pete!

 

My son Liam, now a great musician and writer of songs and tunes was diagnosed 'dyslexic' as a child. He would write his name as MAIL, LIAM and verically and in reverse and mirror script no problem. I reckon he could have written up and down the page and from Left to Right and back like Leonardo da Vinci. The letters are just culturally determined ways of recording the sounds . A Doh in Russia is a Doh in England but we wouldn't recognise the letters used.

 

What are these little Japanese kids losing in taking on Suzuki ( what's that in Japanes pictograms? All we get is Anglicisations of electronic gadgets and car names)

 

I often feel the same way about Italian names for musical style. What the hell do Allegro, Sostenuto or Legato mean ?. If they were given in Gaelic I'd feel just as turned off!

Mike

Edited by michael sam wild
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Hmm, I think it's tricky and each family has to make it's own way - there are many different approaches to learning and many different cultural nuances. I'm sure Mischa has the best interests of his daughter to heart. Even around here I know of one family whose kids all play classical to a high level but they get up at 5 and 6 in the morning to practice before school. I don't see them smiling too much when I hear them play but who knows? It could be just routine for them - it could be tyranny that they'll rebel against later, maybe they'll look back as adults and be glad they 'forced' to work at it. For ourselves, we have a more laissez faire approach - those that want to play, do so and we try different methods of learning.

 

Specifically with regard to Trad music in Ireland, most children of your age will start on tin whistle. They play that for a few years and around 10-12, choose another instrument(s). The whistle is handy enough and the tunes learnt can be transferred to new instrument. With regard to teachers etc., some might use staff music but commonly the notes are just written out e.g. GA BG AG BG..., something like ABC notation.

Edited by tombilly
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We need to learn to communicate, then make intelligble noises, then speak and express some innate rules before we learn to read and finally spell 'properly'

 

Mike

 

 

 

I have never learned to spell proprely. I can not read music...I have tried...for twenty years.

 

I do many other things well and I celebrate those things.

 

We are all different...and its a good thing.

 

fjb

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Specifically with regard to Trad music in Ireland, most children of your age will start on tin whistle. They play that for a few years and around 10-12, choose another instrument(s). The whistle is handy enough and the tunes learnt can be transferred to new instrument. With regard to teachers etc., some might use staff music but commonly the notes are just written out e.g. GA BG AG BG..., something like ABC notation.

 

Padraig O'Keefe the old Fiddle master used a notation of his own like that ( a tablature' I suppose )

 

In England the recorder seems to have been used for years. 'Tonguing' is stressed to get 'pure' notes whereas a whistle encourages you to slide and understand the notes between the black and white notes.

 

I like the idea that you move on , does that explain why the whistle is often regarded, like the mouth organ , as a kid's instrument by quite a lot of Irish musicians I've met? Once in Miltown Malbay a woman said to me 'Wow you can really play music on that' meaning my Suzuki Hammond harmonica, I stressed how it had developed my lung power and control and pointed her to Brendan Power's CD.

Edited by michael sam wild
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I'd say you're probably right with view on whistle being a kid's instrument - but, of course even if a child takes up box or fiddle or whatever, they'll still be able to pick up a whistle and knock out tunes on it, even years later as an adult. The other curious fact about written notation in Irish Trad, is that even though the tunes are often learnt by ear by musicians with a few years under their belts, most teachers of children will supply written notes for the tune in the form described above. They recognise that a child needs a bit of help to remember how the tune goes when they go home to practice. So learning by ear is an acqured skill by and large.

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I'd love to hear more about Irish kids' experiences on tin whistle. When I was a youngster in an 'Irish' community ( we never went back until after WW2 in the 1950s but were told by Catholic Priests we were Irish ) in Manchester in the 1940s we made whistles out of elderberry twigs that had a soft pith inside and you could make a 'fipple'as well.

 

I made one the other day for my grandaughter and tuned it to my son's piano and it had a lovely sweet tone. I played 'Baah Baah Black Sheep' and 'The Rakes of Mallow 'on it.

 

Mike ( just off to the allotment to dig my bean row)

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When I was a youngster in an 'Irish' community ( we never went back until after WW2 in the 1950s but were told by Catholic Priests we were Irish ) in Manchester in the 1940s we made whistles out of elderberry twigs that had a soft pith inside and you could make a 'fipple'as well.

 

I made one the other day for my grandaughter and tuned it to my son's piano and it had a lovely sweet tone. I played 'Baah Baah Black Sheep' and 'The Rakes of Mallow 'on it.

Reminds me of the poem we learnt at school - The Whistle

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That's a grand wee poem - looking through yer mans biography, he sure lived a busy life! Regarding elder, was it here or somewhere else, very recently, that I read about same thing in northern part of Ireland. Here the elder is called the Bour Tree if I recall correctly and it was speculated that this was a reference to the fact that the pith could be bored out easily for whistles and the like.

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