Jump to content

Learning by ear vs learning by sheet music, my experience


jeffw

Recommended Posts

Aye & as well as that A.I., the Americans call all tunes SONGS! :rolleyes:

 

I'm sure there are those for whom this is true. But, there are also those of us who just play the music, and don't find so much time to quibble over all the differences.

 

Thought I'd respond, particularly for Anglo-Irishman's benefit, who has taken exception with me in the past for making broad generalizations about "culture" and populations. Seems he didn't have a problem with this statement by Dick categorically indicting the "Americans" and their alleged ignorance of the difference between tunes and songs. :(

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 84
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

With all due respect, you disagree with the statement that some folks "just play the music" and are not so much invested in argy-bargy? Interesting, yet befuddling. :unsure:

 

Typical nonsense answer. I don't know what the expression 'argy-bargy' means, but there's no such a way of 'just play the music'. I only know two ways of playing music: well and badly. And a knowledge - a basic one - of how the structure of the music, scales, modes and even cultural and social elements are helped me to play in a better way the music I like.

 

I just cannot believe anybody can like to play some kind of music he/she fancies and not to feel a minimum curiosity about other aspects of it...

 

Of course, I almost forgot that outside certain countries the world doesn't exist.

 

And all this, of course with all the same respect.

 

Cheers,

 

Fer

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My goodness...why so hostile? :blink: Intuition is one other way for a person to execute "music" without formal knowledge of the elements of music.

 

My statement that some folks (such as myself) "just play the music" without being as invested in arguing the differences between what is "celtic" and what is not (for example), is irrefutable based upon fact. "Disagreeing" with such a statement is illogical--as would "disgagreement" with the statement "I enjoy eating ice cream, but don't know what it contains." To insist that I would enjoy eating ice cream more if I were aware of its contents is an unsupportable assumption.

 

I make no value judgements about anything, "the structure of the music, scales, modes..." etc., other than my own preference for spending more time playing music and less time arguing over what music "is." While it is more nativistic than elitist, perhaps, I only say what I said. You will read into it what you may.

Edited by catty
Link to comment
Share on other sites

"I enjoy eating ice cream, but don't know what it contains." To insist that I would enjoy eating ice cream more if I were aware of its contents is an unsupportable assumption.

Hmmm....

If you really knew what went into some of the stuff that gets marketed as 'ice cream' these days, you would probably enjoy eating it less :(

 

I'll just get my coat now....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm sorry if my answer sounded hostile, that wasn't my intention. But I'm afraid your analogy with ice cream doesn't work in this context.

 

For example: If you know you're playing a double jig in D mixolidyan, you already know:

 

-You're playing in 6/8 time

-Very probably was originary a pipe tune

-You only have a F#: then you know what notes you CAN play into the scale an what notes you SHOULDN'T.

-The harmony should go around D and C major chords

-etc...

 

Nothing to do, as you can see, with the eternal quarrel about if it's 'celtic' or not ;) Maybe is that I respect too much what music is for only 'just play it', don't know... I hope all was a misunderstanding. But be sure that if I wasn't interested in grammar and vocabulary, my english would be indeed a lot worse than already is :lol:

 

Cheers,

 

Fer

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Aye & as well as that A.I., the Americans call all tunes SONGS! :rolleyes:

 

I'm sure there are those for whom this is true. But, there are also those of us who just play the music, and don't find so much time to quibble over all the differences.

 

Thought I'd respond, particularly for Anglo-Irishman's benefit, who has taken exception with me in the past for making broad generalizations about "culture" and populations. Seems he didn't have a problem with this statement by Dick categorically indicting the "Americans" and their alleged ignorance of the difference between tunes and songs. :(

 

Catty,

This is the first time I've been addressed for NOT saying anything to a posting! :lol:

This thread is not about American culture (NOT an oxymoron, BTW - every society has a culture of some sort ;) ), so it never occurred to me to further belabour the point.

 

One point I must make, though, since you bring it up, is that using correct terminology has nothing to do with "quibbling". Even in non-musical circles in England, a song is a piece of music consisting essentially of a lyric and a melody (or tune). A melody (or tune) is a fixed sequence of musical intervals that even unmusical people can learn to recognise and hum or whistle (e.g. the tune of the national anthem of your country), and this can exist separate from words.

 

If we started disputing about the difference between "tune" and "melody", and then somebody threw in the word "theme" - that would be more like quibbling! ;)

 

For me, the main point is that music is a specialist field, and like all specialist fields has its technical vocabulary. The specialist distingushes concepts that the layman cannot differentiate, so the specialist vocabulary must be more differentiated than the vernacular.

 

If you "just play music", and never talk about it, of course, you don't need the specialist vocabulary. But when you DO discourse about it, it's good to be aware that there are usage conventions. And that these conventions may vary regionally within one language :o

 

Cheers,

John

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"I enjoy eating ice cream, but don't know what it contains." To insist that I would enjoy eating ice cream more if I were aware of its contents is an unsupportable assumption.

This is a great analogy, but it cuts both ways. You need to consider not what an ice cream eater knows about what goes into ice cream, but what an ice cream maker knows, and whether it's more important that the maker enjoy making and eating her own ice cream or that it be marketable to others as ice cream.

 

You might enjoy playing your music knowing nothing about what goes into it, but music is meant to be shared, played for and/or with others. If you're only playing it for yourself and enjoying it without really evaluating it against the criteria others apply to the evaluation of music, can you really call it music?

 

[Edited to remove a stray coma]

Edited by David Barnert
Link to comment
Share on other sites

-You only have a F#: then you know what notes you CAN play into the scale an what notes you SHOULDN'T.

-The harmony should go around D and C major chords

-etc...

 

Fer

 

If you only have an F# have you thought about the tune being from a gapped pentatonic scale? All this D and C major stuff gets up my nose, but using the names of mediaeval modes in an effort to be superior is even more irritating. You need to look at more than the key signature and identify which notes are actually in the tune (if you insist on spouting western classical theory about tunes in far older scales than mediaeval). Would you put a D major chord on a guitar over a tune with only a 5 note scale all of which are on the black notes of a piano??

 

The pernicious introduction of accompaniment to Irish trad music has started all this tripe. You can hear which tunes are old and which have cringe-making modern changes in them without any thought whatsoever. And you will hear clearly that the old tunes are in different scales to the ones yelled out to each other by accompanists at a session.

Edited by Mayofiddler
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Aye & as well as that A.I., the Americans call all tunes SONGS! :rolleyes:

 

I'm sure there are those for whom this is true. But, there are also those of us who just play the music, and don't find so much time to quibble over all the differences.

 

Thought I'd respond, particularly for Anglo-Irishman's benefit, who has taken exception with me in the past for making broad generalizations about "culture" and populations. Seems he didn't have a problem with this statement by Dick categorically indicting the "Americans" and their alleged ignorance of the difference between tunes and songs. :(

 

One point I must make, though, since you bring it up, is that using correct terminology has nothing to do with "quibbling".

 

For me, the main point is that music is a specialist field, and like all specialist fields has its technical vocabulary. The specialist distingushes concepts that the layman cannot differentiate, so the specialist vocabulary must be more differentiated than the vernacular.

 

Among a knowledgeable community concerned with vocabulary and accuracy, you'll all understand quite well, then, the value of addressing stereotypes. The statement, "the Americans call all tunes songs," while perhaps a common perception, nonetheless is a a stereotype deserving of scrutiny, (for sake of accuracy): me and my cohorts do not; (not only do we know and disseminate the difference...we know a bunch of other stuff too. :lol: )

 

My ice cream analogy, while not perfect, was apt enough to get my point across. ;)

.

Edited by catty
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Among a knowledgeable community concerned with vocabulary and accuracy, you'll all understand quite well, then, the value of addressing stereotypes. The statement, "the Americans call all tunes songs," while perhaps a common perception, nonetheless is a a stereotype deserving of scrutiny ...

 

This is the very reason why I did not comment on Ptarmigan's posting! This was not the place to scrutinise his stereotype.

 

But since we've got the word "stereotype" on the griddle: all Americans and all English people each think that the other lot are speaking the same language, but incorrectly. You and I are, of course, exceptions to this stereotype. Well, at least, I am ...

:P

 

I think it would be a nice rule to add the disclaimer "Present company excepted" to a lot of postings here.

 

Cheers,

John

Link to comment
Share on other sites

-You only have a F#: then you know what notes you CAN play into the scale an what notes you SHOULDN'T.

-The harmony should go around D and C major chords

-etc...

 

Fer

 

If you only have an F# have you thought about the tune being from a gapped pentatonic scale? All this D and C major stuff gets up my nose, but using the names of mediaeval modes in an effort to be superior is even more irritating. You need to look at more than the key signature and identify which notes are actually in the tune (if you insist on spouting western classical theory about tunes in far older scales than mediaeval). Would you put a D major chord on a guitar over a tune with only a 5 note scale all of which are on the black notes of a piano??

 

The pernicious introduction of accompaniment to Irish trad music has started all this tripe. You can hear which tunes are old and which have cringe-making modern changes in them without any thought whatsoever. And you will hear clearly that the old tunes are in different scales to the ones yelled out to each other by accompanists at a session.

 

Thanks, I love you too. Sorry, but I don't try too feel superior to anybody. I never do play a tune at first sight - i mean, from the dots - without learning it first from hear, scores are only a help. And most of the theory I learned about irish music is not, obviously, from natives.

 

Perhaps where I said SHOULD I would have to say COULD. Anyway, if you want, we could talk in spanish.

 

Tunes in far older scales than medieval? Most of western europe music pre-industrial age was pretty alike, maybe in most remote places was best conserved merely by isolation. Or are you going to tell me that the irish music comes from the 'celts' or the fairies? That the pipes are a 'celtic' invention? Or that - as some blokes told me - that irish & british traditions and people are totally different and with different origins? Oh, Christ... :rolleyes:

 

No cheers now.

 

Fer

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Tunes in far older scales than medieval? Most of western europe music pre-industrial age was pretty alike, maybe in most remote places was best conserved merely by isolation. Or are you going to tell me that the irish music comes from the 'celts' or the fairies? That the pipes are a 'celtic' invention? Or that - as some blokes told me - that irish & british traditions and people are totally different and with different origins? Oh, Christ... :rolleyes:

 

Fer

 

Pre-industrial since Mediaeval times yes, at that time things were battered into the beginning of what we know of as modern western music, but not before. But there are many other scales and musical systems still around and not just in Ireland. Try starting at least 2000 years ago for pentatonic scales.

 

I would say I love you even if you don't love me, but I don't want to be accused of being an Irish fairy :-) Most of those are in a well-known Dublin pub anyway.

 

As for language, please don't make that an excuse. You clearly laid out your pontifications in a tidy list in pretty good English. They were totally understandable. I was not annoyed at you, just the prevailing attitude of eejits who try to bend Irish trad to fit into modern musical ideas.

 

I don't know what you have against Celts, although I agree 100% with you about the stupid usage of the word in modern music-shop genres. There is no doubt there was a widespread Celtic culture at one time, although it would appear to be more of a spread of fashion than any mass migrations by a particular DNA-bearing people. As for whether they were in Ireland, as far as I know La Tene style items have been found in plentiful supply in the North and heading down as far as a rough line just above Galway and Dublin, but none further south (correct me if I'm wrong).

 

Pipes of one kind or another have been around in many cultures for a long time, I don't know why you think someone might think they were an Irish invention. The regulators on Uilleann Pipes are certainly modern.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Pre-industrial since Mediaeval times yes, at that time things were battered into the beginning of what we know of as modern western music, but not before. But there are many other scales and musical systems still around and not just in Ireland. Try starting at least 2000 years ago for pentatonic scales.

 

I would say I love you even if you don't love me, but I don't want to be accused of being an Irish fairy :-) Most of those are in a well-known Dublin pub anyway.

 

As for language, please don't make that an excuse. You clearly laid out your pontifications in a tidy list in pretty good English. They were totally understandable. I was not annoyed at you, just the prevailing attitude of eejits who try to bend Irish trad to fit into modern musical ideas.

 

I don't know what you have against Celts, although I agree 100% with you about the stupid usage of the word in modern music-shop genres. There is no doubt there was a widespread Celtic culture at one time, although it would appear to be more of a spread of fashion than any mass migrations by a particular DNA-bearing people. As for whether they were in Ireland, as far as I know La Tene style items have been found in plentiful supply in the North and heading down as far as a rough line just above Galway and Dublin, but none further south (correct me if I'm wrong).

 

Pipes of one kind or another have been around in many cultures for a long time, I don't know why you think someone might think they were an Irish invention. The regulators on Uilleann Pipes are certainly modern.

 

1st: I know there are other scales. But in that subject, ITM is pretty simple: Only 4 modes, and very few rythm types. More complex modes, scales and rythms are used in eastern Europe music, for example.

 

Greek modes are older than gregorian music, just in case you didn't noticed.

 

2nd: I don't make an excuse of anything. Only discuss about and give my opinion according to my experience in the matter, and say exactly what I want to say. Only was afraid of a wrong use of the word. And I don't pontificate, I prefer to leave that to catholics.

 

3rd. Never said pipes are an irish invention, i said a 'CELT' invention. That's a moroness pretty common to a lot of galicians and asturians that still do think they have more in common with irish & scots that with the rest of spaniards. False, ridiculous and dangerously nationalistic ideas.

 

For a better knowledge of where irish music comes from, there is a lot of information in the excelent book 'The Northern Fiddler'. Simpler than a lot of people would like.

 

Fer

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Among a knowledgeable community concerned with vocabulary and accuracy, you'll all understand quite well, then, the value of addressing stereotypes. The statement, "the Americans call all tunes songs," while perhaps a common perception, nonetheless is a a stereotype deserving of scrutiny ...

 

This is the very reason why I did not comment on Ptarmigan's posting! This was not the place to scrutinise his stereotype.

 

But since we've got the word "stereotype" on the griddle: all Americans and all English people each think that the other lot are speaking the same language, but incorrectly. You and I are, of course, exceptions to this stereotype. Well, at least, I am ...

:P

 

I think it would be a nice rule to add the disclaimer "Present company excepted" to a lot of postings here.

 

Cheers,

John

 

Acknowledged, and agreed. :lol:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Aye & as well as that A.I., the Americans call all tunes SONGS! :rolleyes:

 

I'm sure there are those for whom this is true. But, there are also those of us who just play the music, and don't find so much time to quibble over all the differences.

 

Thought I'd respond, particularly for Anglo-Irishman's benefit, who has taken exception with me in the past for making broad generalizations about "culture" and populations. Seems he didn't have a problem with this statement by Dick categorically indicting the "Americans" and their alleged ignorance of the difference between tunes and songs. :(

 

No Catty, I'm sorry if my comment gave you the impression that I was implying that all Americans were ignorant.

That was certainly not what I meant at all.

I've spent many, many happy hours on forums discussing music & tunes, mostly Old Time, with Americans & I know that from my own experience & huge proportion of them like to call tunes songs.

I can assure they don't do it out of ignorance at all, it just seems to be a convention with them, a pet name if you like & I don't really have a problem with it & it certainly doesn't keep me awake at night, but I often smile when I hear it being used.

 

In Aberdeenshire farming country, you would be given a potty for your tea. Elsewhere a potty has a very different use! ;)

 

Language is fun.

 

Cheers

Dick

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...