david_boveri Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 (edited) i guess i would say that i consider fanning to be on the very extreme end of the spectrum: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIpE38VoY08 I'm happy to disagree and state that in my opinion Edel is a fanner. She opens the bellows from the top, using the solidity gained from holding the bellows together at the bottom to create a stable platform for accurate fingerwork. What creates the uncertainty is what she does when she runs into the one disadvantage created by fanning, running out of air. At this point she lifts the bellows apart at the bottom, but still maintains the slight downwards pressure on the bellows that creates fanning. This starts the bellows into a mild S shape, and retains a stable end. For a more dramatic example of the use of an S bend to create stability for the free end of the concertina (in this case the left end) look at the Micheal O' Raghallaigh clip on Comhaltas, probably also on Youtube. I suspect Edel pushes down with the heel of her hand when the bellows are closed at the bottom and down with the index finger side of her hand when she has moved from the closed fanning position to the S bend position. If you look at the Noel Hill clips on Youtube the bellows are more extended but the free end is lower than the fixed end, creating the S bend. would you then say that she fans part of the time and pulls out for the other part? i am not so sure i agree with that, but i can concede it may be true. Well, Dave, I will not waste valuable practice time arguing with you on what constitutes "fanning". (I still remeber our 20 minute walk and your monologue that could be summed up in one sentence: "I don't care what you learn, as long as you pay attention." See, I was paying attention!) But I will go straight to the source this summer and observe Edel's bellows work. No problem paying attention. Greg i wonder if you would have remembered my talk if all i had said was "i dont care what you learn, as long as you pay attention." which reminds me... i was going to go practice but somehow i ended up online. keeping me in line, as usual! Edited March 1, 2009 by david_boveri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hereward Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 Maybe I have spent too much time keeping a British motorcycle on the road! Chris I my not be too up on fanning but I am a fan of such machines and respect anyone who keeps one on the road. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mayofiddler Posted March 1, 2009 Author Share Posted March 1, 2009 Wow! Great responses, thank you. Funnily I spent a few hours yesterday tugging at the concertina using only the straps, using my fingers for support, pulling the bellows in and out, fanning up and down and fanning from the back to the front. I came (tentatively) to the same conclusions Chris Ghent mentioned. No, I don't expect to have control of the bellows in a couple of weeks :-) But I'm just trying to understand the physics of the bellows and reeds. For sure I notice a delay between the push and the draw when travelling straight in and out with the bellows. It disappears with the fan method. Also the corner attachments of the straps tend to pull the inside of the ends out naturally and "re-setting" the angle when moving in the other direction seems to accentuate the delay. I know that some of this is my inexperience and lack of control, as my wife can play the Morse without bother although she says it requires some effort. And part is the instrument, as the delay all but vanishes when I use her Suttner despite my lack of experience. So I am trying to accommodate the shortcomings in my instrument to some extent. To do that I need to understand the mechanics of avoiding the delay between push and draw. I understand this is purely mechanical and intellectual and has nothing to do with the real music, but one requires the other. After looking at the video links and the comments here I think for sure I will spend time using the fan method while I get used to the instrument. When I get a teacher I'm sure they will have their own ideas and I might be beaten into submission, but I'd like to be able to play a few simple tunes passably before I join the 8 year olds in a class :-) I hope any bad habits won't be too strongly entrenched by then! As an aside and not wishing to spark an "Accordion versus concertina reed" discussion (which I'm sure has been done to death here at some stage), do concertina reeds have a faster response than accordion reeds? I'm only asking about response times rather than any other qualities. I'm asking as I wonder why I use about only about 10% of the bellows on the Suttner that I do on the Morse and why the reeds speak so quickly on the Suttner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Jowaisas Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 i wonder if you would have remembered my talk if all i had said was "i dont care what you learn, as long as you pay attention." With all due respect (I've known Dave for years and respect his opinions) "Pain is a great teacher". (I said that!) I will keep paying attention to you and look forward to your refinement in teaching techniques. (Brevity and a concise statement allow more practice time. Bye) Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdms Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 Maybe I have spent too much time keeping a British motorcycle on the road! Too much? Perish the thought! Though much as I'd rather be playing my concertina than tinkering with it, I'd rather be riding than wrenching...it's still winter in Massachusetts today (and snowing), though, so the decision between thirty buttons and two wheels is an easy one. Joshua Mackay-Smith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 You may be interested in the views expressed on the Utube Videos Concertina Bellows Management 1 & 2Not sure how to do the link but it Google's OK. Al Concertina bellows management 1 Concertina bellows management 2 Hi Normally I'm mute in the threads about technique because most is above my understanding, but I do read them. I'm not sure it matters, but Goran plays an English, as does Danny Chapman. Both also have been modified with a restraining strap accross the bottom of their instrument. Here second from the bottom it is referenced on Danny's page: http://www.rowlhouse.co.uk/concertina/pictures/index.html The first second or two show the strap attachment: In at least one of Goran's videos he also references straps accross the bottom in the explaination on the right: There are more than 2 video explainations. All of them are here: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=Gran43&view=videos In any of the discussions of the technique I've not seen any reference to the strap modification. Does it matter the modification/technique may be different on an Anglo? I'll go back to reading now Thanks Leo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m3838 Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 Hi, Having a great time with the new Morse, I actually enjoy playing it more than my trusty old fiddle which amazes me. I was merrily tugging the bellows straight in and out when I noticed on one of the Youtube videos of the fleadh that a girl was playing by making the bellows "fan" outwards, rather than pulling them straight in and out. I then had a quick look around and found one of the tutorials mentioned in another thread here, and that also showed the bellows being fanned (kept tight on the side away from the player's body and spread open on the side towards the player). Can anyone tell me what the pros and cons are? I tried this fan technique and it feels more stable and also seems to give faster response when changing quickly from in to the out. More like operating against a hinge than hauling the bellows. I put the question to my wife and she said that some time in the dim and distant past she was told not to use the fan technique because it wears the bellows unevenly. However I don't see the difference between wearing out one side of the bellows or both sides evenly, so that doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Appreciate any comments on the "correct" technique (if there is one) and why it is correct. Thanks folks. is Goran Rahm a virtuoso? do whatever you want, wear out your bellows,the concertina repairers will be laughing all the way to the bank,it is no guarantee that your playing will improve either. No put downs, but Russian bayan players are laughing from morning to night when listening to us, playing our beloved precious gems, whether we wear our bellows or not. In terms of playing - stability and control take precedence, wear of bellows comes way down the line of priorities. As far as virtuosos go, most of them don't participate here, and those who do (and we know their names) play both ways. P.S. Yes, bayan repairers have their hands full. The bellows get worn out, and reeds blown and snapped during performances, and action needs to be tweaked before and after every significant performance. It's the nature of the mechanics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david_boveri Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 For sure I notice a delay between the push and the draw when travelling straight in and out with the bellows. It disappears with the fan method. Also the corner attachments of the straps tend to pull the inside of the ends out naturally and "re-setting" the angle when moving in the other direction seems to accentuate the delay. i wonder how tight your straps are. the reason that there is a delay is because your straps may not be tight enough, and you may be using your weaker wrist muscles to control the instrument. and yes, it is easier to get the notes to sound with fanning. i am constantly adjusting my playing, and there have been moments in time when yes i did fan to get the best control. then, i would try to get the same sound without fanning as i did with. so, being open to change is a great way to approach it! keep at it with the fanning, but keep practicing in and out and switch when you feel comfortable doing so. I know that some of this is my inexperience and lack of control, as my wife can play the Morse without bother although she says it requires some effort. And part is the instrument, as the delay all but vanishes when I use her Suttner despite my lack of experience. So I am trying to accommodate the shortcomings in my instrument to some extent. To do that I need to understand the mechanics of avoiding the delay between push and draw. I understand this is purely mechanical and intellectual and has nothing to do with the real music, but one requires the other. in general, hybrid concertinas are more difficult to play than, say, a suttner. there have been many things i thought i was unable to do which i found instantly capable of when picking up the likes of a suttner. then, going back to a hybrid, i can't do these things again. after a few weeks or months, i find myself able to do those things that were effortless on a concertina-reeded instrument. so, playing the likes of a suttner will actually make you a better player. just keep in mind that if it is in you, you can put it in the instrument. the morse is capable of doing what you are doing. After looking at the video links and the comments here I think for sure I will spend time using the fan method while I get used to the instrument. When I get a teacher I'm sure they will have their own ideas and I might be beaten into submission, but I'd like to be able to play a few simple tunes passably before I join the 8 year olds in a class :-) I hope any bad habits won't be too strongly entrenched by then! the best way to avoid bad habits is to keep an open mind, and actively pay attention (you're welcome, gregg!). it can be helpful to pay attention to your playing--your arms, your hands, the sound, etc. i like to approach technique as a continually evolving process. if i may write here that putting your bellows on your knees are no good, then when day it's the only way i can get a sound i want, i go for it. you will only get yourself entrenched if you dig yourself into a whole. every day you learn your brain changes. your understanding of fanning today is different than yesterday. so, if you go with fanning, it could be helpful to look at fanning freshly every day. too often when we learn we end up working at an idea we had from a long time ago or try to do something based on how we USED to understand it, and ignore our new experiences. As an aside and not wishing to spark an "Accordion versus concertina reed" discussion (which I'm sure has been done to death here at some stage), do concertina reeds have a faster response than accordion reeds? I'm only asking about response times rather than any other qualities. I'm asking as I wonder why I use about only about 10% of the bellows on the Suttner that I do on the Morse and why the reeds speak so quickly on the Suttner. yes, they do have a faster response. also, in general the air buttons can take more air on concertina-reeded instruments, so you end being able to move in or out quicker when pressing the button. you can notice this time difference most on the highest notes--on an accordion-reeded instrument you may notice that the highest notes have a brief, audible delay before sounding. this is because the reeds were designed for accordions. it is amazing and a credit to these makers that they can take reeds designed for a whole different instrument and make them work and sound so well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david_boveri Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 (edited) i wonder if you would have remembered my talk if all i had said was "i dont care what you learn, as long as you pay attention." With all due respect (I've known Dave for years and respect his opinions) "Pain is a great teacher". (I said that!) I will keep paying attention to you and look forward to your refinement in teaching techniques. (Brevity and a concise statement allow more practice time. Bye) Greg the lesson in brevity yesterday actually got me some really good practice time in. geethankstalktoyoulaterbye. Edited March 2, 2009 by david_boveri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Ghent Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 (edited) Maybe I have spent too much time keeping a British motorcycle on the road! Too much? Perish the thought! Though much as I'd rather be playing my concertina than tinkering with it, I'd rather be riding than wrenching...it's still winter in Massachusetts today (and snowing), though, so the decision between thirty buttons and two wheels is an easy one. Joshua Mackay-Smith Its never too cold here and only a few days a year is it too hot. My Commando had not had the same degree of attention since I discovered tinkering with concertinas (now why is that) but I still wring its neck a few times a week. Chris Edited March 2, 2009 by Chris Ghent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mayofiddler Posted March 2, 2009 Author Share Posted March 2, 2009 Thanks David B, clear answers to my questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Jowaisas Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 i wonder if you would have remembered my talk if all i had said was "i dont care what you learn, as long as you pay attention." With all due respect (I've known Dave for years and respect his opinions) "Pain is a great teacher". (I said that!) I will keep paying attention to you and look forward to your refinement in teaching techniques. (Brevity and a concise statement allow more practice time. Bye) Greg the lesson in brevity yesterday actually got me some really good practice time in. geethankstalktoyoulaterbye. Happy for you that you are payjng attention. Lesstalk=Moreplay. YoutheMan! Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdms Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 Maybe I have spent too much time keeping a British motorcycle on the road! Too much? Perish the thought! Though much as I'd rather be playing my concertina than tinkering with it, I'd rather be riding than wrenching...it's still winter in Massachusetts today (and snowing), though, so the decision between thirty buttons and two wheels is an easy one. Joshua Mackay-Smith Its never too cold here and only a few days a year is it too hot. My Commando had not had the same degree of attention since I discovered tinkering with concertinas (now why is that) but I still wring its neck a few times a week. Chris Hm...relocate, find job, import the R1100RS and the Rapide...nah. Though if I can ever afford an instrument from you (haven't asked after your prices, but I can't afford another hybrid at the moment, so a new concertina-reeded instrument is out of the question for the time being), my sister-in-law grew up in Gundaroo (not far from Canberra) and I can probably get her and my brother to bring it back with them from their next visit after it's done... jdms Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Ghent Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 Hm...relocate, find job, import the R1100RS and the Rapide...nah. Though if I can ever afford an instrument from you (haven't asked after your prices, but I can't afford another hybrid at the moment, so a new concertina-reeded instrument is out of the question for the time being), my sister-in-law grew up in Gundaroo (not far from Canberra) and I can probably get her and my brother to bring it back with them from their next visit after it's done... Maybe we can do a deal for the Rapide..? I prefer them to the Shadow, though the large clock would be nice. Mind you, at current local rates 1 Rapide = 8 concertinas... Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdms Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 (edited) Maybe we can do a deal for the Rapide..? I prefer them to the Shadow, though the large clock would be nice. Mind you, at current local rates 1 Rapide = 8 concertinas... Chris My Concertina Acquisition Disorder isn't yet a severe enough case to (1) need eight more concertinas (maybe as many as three...) or (2) part with the bike (one can always put a Shadow clock on a Rapide, though the purists will surely emit disdainful sniffs), but it's good to have options. (I certainly do seem to be contributing to severe thread drift, or would be if more people were taking part in the drifting bit...) jdms [edited to adjust for inadvertant smiley production] Edited March 3, 2009 by jdms Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mayofiddler Posted March 3, 2009 Author Share Posted March 3, 2009 Well as the thread starter I suppose I could I could own up to having had a BSA Bantam in the early 70s, then a Norton Commando and then a whole string of Jap Cr*p which were all mechanically better and faster than the Brit bikes, but somehow just not the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azalin Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 David and Greg, thanks for the few links you posted here. I love the Kitty Lie Over from Noel Hill. I'm not really a big fan of the actual music Noel Hill plays, I mean, just as a matter of taste, but in term of technique I am completely mesmerized by what he's doing. I get the feeling sometimes it's as if he were playing the pipes, but with the concertina. It's just mind blowing. Edel Fox is much closer to what I really love, and gosh, I love her phrasing. Those videos are great, and I actually caught a few tricks by watching her fingers and the buttons she chooses in a couple of tunes, gives me pointers and ideas on how to better phrase some part of some tunes. The Drunken Sailor, isn't a wonderful hornipe? It's a true jewel. I feel it's almost blasphemous to play this tune if you don't totally master it. There's so much to that tune it's a shame to waste it with shaky playing. I'll be practicing that one for months before I ever play it in public :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Levine Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 It's those tricky triplets in the last two parts of the D.S. that make it so challenging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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