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pd: When you say fiddles sounding like bagpipes, what do you mean: a midi fiddle or to use piping rolls and crans on fiddle?

 

Cheers

Fer

 

Aye, rolls & crans etc.

 

I prefer a Fiddle to sound like a Fiddle & for the Fiddler to make use of the Fiddles finest qualities, rather than try to foist other instrument's sounds on it.

 

Cheers

Dick

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I think a midi concertina is a great idea...as long as you can plug headphones in so you can practice without disturbing anyone. :)

 

And nothing else. I know the blokes that are developing the midi pipes here in Spain - Hevia, Parrado y Aragón - and have seen the 'abherrathion'. Is funny, but that wouldn't make improve a piper.

 

Bagpipes are not only fingering the chanter, but blowing inside the instrument and squeezing the bag properly with your left arm. They're now trying to make the sensors more sensitive for to be able to play sliding notes. From my poin of view, this is like trying to re-invent the wheel, a real chanter can do that centuries ago!.

 

LDT, is allright you can play with headphones, but I doubt you'll learn to play properly concertina. Not only the buttons, but the bellows would have a totally different feeling... ( and even worse on anglo!)

 

Yes, you can play with headphones with a midi concertina... and you can play without any electric power with a real one!

 

Of course, this is ONLY my point of view. :)

 

Cheers

 

Fer

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Aye, rolls & crans etc.

 

I prefer a Fiddle to sound like a Fiddle & for the Fiddler to make use of the Fiddles finest qualities, rather than try to foist other instrument's sounds on it.

 

Cheers

Dick

 

Agree. Is because of that I prefer scottish fiddle music and the wild style of Donegal ( or northern irish, if you prefer ).

 

(for a sample of my playing, go to the thread Teaching an Learning -> Performance anxiety?) ;)

 

Cheers,

 

Fer

Edited by Fergus_fiddler
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pd: When you say fiddles sounding like bagpipes, what do you mean: a midi fiddle or to use piping rolls and crans on fiddle?

Good question; after all, a lot of Irish concertina style stems from an attempt to emulate uillean pipe decorations ... round1.gif

 

(To those who don't like tasteless icons ... er ... sorry!)

 

Chris

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Good question; after all, a lot of Irish concertina style stems from an attempt to emulate uillean pipe decorations ... round1.gif

 

(To those who don't like tasteless icons ... er ... sorry!)

 

Chris

 

Indeed, and the funny thing is that everything begun - I think - when Matt Molloy developed his irish flute playing into a 'piping style'...

 

Honestly, when somebody asks me for to play a cran on the fiddle, I answer: 'Why?' :P

 

Cheers,

 

Fer

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Aye, rolls & crans etc.

 

I prefer a Fiddle to sound like a Fiddle & for the Fiddler to make use of the Fiddles finest qualities, rather than try to foist other instrument's sounds on it.

 

Cheers

Dick

 

Agree. Is because of that I prefer scottish fiddle music and the wild style of Donegal ( or northern irish, if you prefer ).

 

(for a sample of my playing, go to the thread Teaching an Learning -> Performance anxiety?) ;)

 

Cheers,

 

Fer

Oh no Fer, I prefer the term Donegal, as the style there is very different to that in other parts of Ulster. { 9 counties }

 

As for Busking, I know what you mean, you get so used to folks just wandering past & then you just love it when folks stop & listen, or best of all chat to you & turn out to be musicians too, or just nice people.

I lived for about 18 months by Busking in Dublin, very poorly financially, but there were of course rich musical rewards for me! If I'd been Fiddling then as well as you are now, I'd have made a lot more money than I did!

 

Cheers

Dick

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I think a midi concertina is a great idea...as long as you can plug headphones in so you can practice without disturbing anyone. :)

 

I don't like the idea that they are there at all, but I'd be happier if I never had to listen to them.

 

Perhaps they could make them all like MP3 players! i.e. you can only hear them when you wear earphones! :lol:

 

Cheers

Dick

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Perhaps they could make them all like MP3 players! i.e. you can only hear them when you wear earphones! :lol:

That would be fine too. :)

LDT, is allright you can play with headphones, but I doubt you'll learn to play properly concertina. Not only the buttons, but the bellows would have a totally different feeling... ( and even worse on anglo!)

 

Yes, you can play with headphones with a midi concertina... and you can play without any electric power with a real one!

 

I wonder if piano players had the same reaction when the keyboard was invented? ;)

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I wonder if piano players had the same reaction when the keyboard was invented? ;)

 

My father is a big fan of big band and jazz and he absolutely hates the sound of anything but a real Joanna. Whether he could really tell just by listening I am not sure though.

 

Amusingly, his father played flute in the Royal Marines and considered the new-fangled big band sound and jazz to be degenerate and horrible. Nothing changes I guess.

 

Ian

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I wonder if piano players had the same reaction when the keyboard was invented? ;)

 

It's funny you say so... Although I'm spanish my wife is british - from Sale, Cheshire - and played piano during a lot of years. Well, when her dad sold the old 'real' piano and bought an electric one, - sensitive touch and everything - she named that 'the machine' and gave up playing till today! :(

 

I'm nowadays planning - and saving - for to buy for her a not too expensive upright piano to tempt her ;)

 

And we're both in our late 30's... Maybe a little too old fashioned? :)

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I wonder if piano players had the same reaction when the keyboard was invented? ;)

 

Probably, because it's the same idea! The keyboard allows people who are familiar with the "ebony and ivory" to sound like guitarists, lutenists, organists, cellists, brass players, even whole string sections, without having to learn how to pluck, blow or srape, not to mention the finger contortions involved. The midi concertina does the same for people who only know how to operate tiny buttons.

 

There were probably some conservative pessimists who saw the keyboard as the end of Steinway, Bösendorfer etc. - but it wasn't. The listening public is perhaps more discerning than some musicians think, and many of them appreciate the sound of a good, real instrument well played. Many of them also prefer to hear what really comes out of an instrument, without the filter of a PA system.

 

Speaking of the keyboard - it originated on the piped organ, which is a non-electronic device for producing different timbres of sound with the same fingering! The first keyboard stringed instrument, the clavichord, was thought up as a practice instrument for organists, but developed a musical life of its own, was improved with a plucking mechanism to produce the virginals, spinet and harpsichord, and then given a hammer mechanism to become the piano. All different technologies behind one user interface! Then came the free reeds, and we got the harmonium, which sound-wise was actually a turn back in the direction of the organ, but with a completely new technology. Then came the Hammond organ, and now the keyboard.

 

The concertina has not spawned stringed or piped versions because the button arrangements are not conducive to this. The only other thing that's as freely arrangeable in a small space as a free reed, is an electronic contact.

 

It's interesting to note that, although the organ, harpsichord and piano have the same keyboard, a good player of one is not necessarily a good player of the others. They can find all the notes, but the different technologies demand different "touches" if they're to sound right. Somethong to bear in mind before you dash out and buy a midi concertina in the hope of becoming an "Anglo pianist" ;)

 

Cheers,

John

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I wonder if piano players had the same reaction when the keyboard was invented? ;)

 

My father is a big fan of big band and jazz and he absolutely hates the sound of anything but a real Joanna. Whether he could really tell just by listening I am not sure though.

 

Amusingly, his father played flute in the Royal Marines and considered the new-fangled big band sound and jazz to be degenerate and horrible. Nothing changes I guess.

 

Ian

 

No, it looks like it doesn't Ian! I guess some folks have good taste .... & some don't! :lol:

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I wonder if piano players had the same reaction when the keyboard was invented? ;)

 

It's funny you say so... Although I'm spanish my wife is british - from Sale, Cheshire - and played piano during a lot of years. Well, when her dad sold the old 'real' piano and bought an electric one, - sensitive touch and everything - she named that 'the machine' and gave up playing till today! :(

 

I'm nowadays planning - and saving - for to buy for her a not too expensive upright piano to tempt her ;)

 

And we're both in our late 30's... Maybe a little too old fashioned? :)

Good Luck on your hunt for a real Piano.

 

In the UK at least, you can't give them away, so you should be able to lay your hands on one, without too much difficulty.

 

I guess people are just becoming increasingly more & more lazy.

 

Seems they just can't be bothered with the hassle of getting them regularly tuned.

Perhaps that's part of the appeal for all these modern techno musical monsters! :( :huh:

 

Bit like the difference between sitting in front of a real log fire & a wall radiator or three bar electric fire.

 

The electric thingys will warm you up alright, but the real fire also warms your heart & soul into the bargain!

 

Cheers

Dick

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A defence of the midi concertina and midi instruments in general.

 

First point, a midi concertina is not in any way competing or attempting to oust the conventional concertina or be seen as an alternative to it. It is about as relevent a comparison as comparing a Hammond organ to a piano.

 

Midi stands for Musical Instrument Digital Interface, and every one of these words in the acronym is important. It is a standardised way of having musical instruments interface digitally with other instruments and with other digital technology, computers, sequencers sysnthesisers etc.

 

To attack midi instruments as though they are somehow worthless ersatz versions of real instruments is to miss the point of Midi so widely as to make it difficult to debate on similar terms. But let’s deal with some of the underlying issues here and I suspect these revolve around the “lack of expression” in Midi instruments. Midi is interesting in that the sound is not the message, the mechanics of the sound are the message. Midi transmits a host of information about the note being played, velocity, pitch, pressure, duration etc etc, but does not say what the sound should be like. Midi files played on a crappy PC with standard midi file player sound crappy, when played on a good system with high-end sound patches, sound amazing.

 

But midi is so much more than this. It forms the core of much studio equipment, sequencing and controlling equipment. It allows composition on the fly directly into notation. It allows the control of instruments, sysnthesisers etc over 16 channels (or more) and over 128 voices in 16 note polyphony, it allows music files to be shared worldwide in very compressed file sizes, in detail and quality far in excess of what is achievable by ABC. (but I am not attacking ABC here, simply making a point).

 

Midi will have played a greater or lesser role in much of the music you hear, its ability to tie instruments together, its sequencing abilities and it ability to make studio setups available to thousands of people around the world linking PC with sysnthesiser with simple cables and software has done more for amateur recording than you can believe.

 

Midi has little to do with ersatz implementations of concertinas which have the trick of being able to play other instrument sounds. What it does for us is allows us access into a DIFFERENT world of music through the INTERFACE of the instrument we love.

 

Incidentally, for the concertina player midi provides an instrument which can be played through headphones without bothering others. It provides an opening into a world of music where by using a search engine you can find a midi file of a tune you heard at a session (or convert ABC to midi using simple software if you can’t find midi) With software like Midi Illustrator or any of a load of others you can play along, record, notate your compositions, transpose, change instruments and generally learn a lot about the wider world of electronic music, which whether we like it or not, is here to stay.

 

The midi, concertina, violin, etc are simply interfaces into the world of digital music, possibly poorly implemented and at the low end of the implementation ladder, but nonetheless a door into another world.

 

To see them as inferior versions of the instrument is really to miss the point.

 

I know we all love our traditional instruments here, and can argue the numbers of angels that can dance on the head of a pin over different sounds of reeds in vintage instruments. Nobody is going to come along to a session with a midi concertina and try and argue that their instrument can sound better in a session, that is not the purpose.

 

For me music is about expanding my knowledge in all directions and if I can do that through the interface of my favourite instrument, that is a fantastic development, not a retrograde step.

 

Simon (in process of converting a "scrap" Lachenal into a midi instrument.)

Edited by Simon H
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I'm sorry, Dick, but I really don't understand why you're pushing this one on. We disagree, fine. You won't convince me to throw away one of my instruments any more than I can convince you to live and let live. Can't we just leave it at that and talk about something else?

 

Chris

Edited by Chris Timson
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Midi has little to do with ersatz implementations of concertinas which have the trick of being able to play other instrument sounds. What it does for us is allows us access into a DIFFERENT world of music through the INTERFACE of the instrument we love.

 

Simon (in process of converting a "scrap" Lachenal into a midi instrument.)

I like that. When I first played around with an electronic keyboard, it took me ages to think that I wasn't somehow 'cheating' and that it wasn't 'real' or 'proper'. Then one day I suddenly looked at it as an instrument in its own right that just happened to have a keyboard that looked something like a piano keyboard. That was the day that I 'got it' and could enjoy it for what it was - which wasn't a piano or organ or anything else. From then on I could enjoy the unique things it could do just as much as I enjoy the unique things that traditional instruments can do.

 

The key for me was to stop thinking that the keyboard was pretending to be a traditional instrument - which of course it never was even though I was initially seeing it that way.

 

I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, just describing how I made sense of things for me!

 

Pete

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It's interesting to note that, although the organ, harpsichord and piano have the same keyboard, a good player of one is not necessarily a good player of the others. They can find all the notes, but the different technologies demand different "touches" if they're to sound right. Somethong to bear in mind before you dash out and buy a midi concertina in the hope of becoming an "Anglo pianist" ;)

 

I wonder if it will go all the way up to '11' (to quote spinal tap)?

I bet you could really 'rock' the concertina if it was electric. ;) :ph34r:

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