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Jeffries vs. Wheatstone


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I recently bought a 1937 30B C/G Wheatstone Linota that I am getting to like very much. It is a lovely player - bright and crisp. I've been a Jeffries player all along but this is very playable. However, I still prefer the Jeffries button arrangement on the right hand. Have many people altered the Wheatstone to the Jeffries C#/D# - D#/C# - G/A arrangement on the right-hand accidental row?

Thanks-

David

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I recently bought a 1937 30B C/G Wheatstone Linota that I am getting to like very much. It is a lovely player - bright and crisp. I've been a Jeffries player all along but this is very playable. However, I still prefer the Jeffries button arrangement on the right hand. Have many people altered the Wheatstone to the Jeffries C#/D# - D#/C# - G/A arrangement on the right-hand accidental row?

Thanks-

David

 

I am sticking to the wheatstone layout. When I play scottish and Irish tunes but I admit I would like to have C#, D# and also F# in both directions, but replacing reeds may also make certain riffs impossible in other scales.

Marien

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I recently bought a 1937 30B C/G Wheatstone Linota that I am getting to like very much. It is a lovely player - bright and crisp. I've been a Jeffries player all along but this is very playable. However, I still prefer the Jeffries button arrangement on the right hand. Have many people altered the Wheatstone to the Jeffries C#/D# - D#/C# - G/A arrangement on the right-hand accidental row?

Thanks-

David

This is my personal opinion and you may not agree with it, but it is offered gently and from the heart.

 

Please think very carefully before making any irrevocable changes to such a high-calibre concertina. The Wheatstone layout is logical (insofar as the anglo concertina can be called a logical instrument) in preserving the LH-RH octave spacing of the third row. This makes it much more suitable for chordal playing and chordal accompaniments; better than the Jeffries system in my opinion. The Wheatstone layout may not at first seem quite so useful for playing Irish traditional music, and many players of ITM would probably favour the Jeffries system, as you yourself indicate.

 

I am firmly of the belief that these high quality, vintage concertinas are precious instruments which deserve care and respect from us as owners. They may well outlast our own lifetime. Indeed, we do not really own them, but hold them in trust for the next player who may well want to play different style of music from ourselves. My feeing would be if you want a Jeffries layout, then get a Jeffries concertina and please leave the Linota as it is.

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It doesn't have to be irrevocable. Some of this is just a matter of switching reeds, and if the reed shoe sizes are the same they can easily be switched back. For the remaining couple of reeds, they can be temporary replaced with reeds with the right shoe sizes obtained elsewhere. Everything can be exchanged back later to restore the concertina to its current state.

 

I personally prefer Wheatstone layout myself, but I don't see this as a problem.

 

Daniel

I recently bought a 1937 30B C/G Wheatstone Linota that I am getting to like very much. It is a lovely player - bright and crisp. I've been a Jeffries player all along but this is very playable. However, I still prefer the Jeffries button arrangement on the right hand. Have many people altered the Wheatstone to the Jeffries C#/D# - D#/C# - G/A arrangement on the right-hand accidental row?

Thanks-

David

This is my personal opinion and you may not agree with it, but it is offered gently and from the heart.

 

Please think very carefully before making any irrevocable changes to such a high-calibre concertina. The Wheatstone layout is logical (insofar as the anglo concertina can be called a logical instrument) in preserving the LH-RH octave spacing of the third row. This makes it much more suitable for chordal playing and chordal accompaniments; better than the Jeffries system in my opinion. The Wheatstone layout may not at first seem quite so useful for playing Irish traditional music, and many players of ITM would probably favour the Jeffries system, as you yourself indicate.

 

I am firmly of the belief that these high quality, vintage concertinas are precious instruments which deserve care and respect from us as owners. They may well outlast our own lifetime. Indeed, we do not really own them, but hold them in trust for the next player who may well want to play different style of music from ourselves. My feeing would be if you want a Jeffries layout, then get a Jeffries concertina and please leave the Linota as it is.

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I doubt that the reeds are easily interchangable, although it's been a while since I worked on that style of instrument. You would also need to do more that exchange reeds. The reed slots would most likely need to be altered. Where would you get the extra C# & D# etc? IMHO leave it as it is. As for the system best for Irish music, I can say that my orders from Ireland are split about 50/50 between the two systems. That, of course, is weighted more to Jeffries than US orders, but still indicates that the Wheatstone system is still very popular for Irish trad music, in Ireland. In fact, Chris Droney plays the Wheatstone system.

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I doubt that the reeds are easily interchangable, although it's been a while since I worked on that style of instrument. You would also need to do more that exchange reeds. The reed slots would most likely need to be altered. Where would you get the extra C# & D# etc? IMHO leave it as it is. As for the system best for Irish music, I can say that my orders from Ireland are split about 50/50 between the two systems. That, of course, is weighted more to Jeffries than US orders, but still indicates that the Wheatstone system is still very popular for Irish trad music, in Ireland. In fact, Chris Droney plays the Wheatstone system.

 

Frank, I agree with you that the chambers and slots for the RH side accidental row (draw) reeds of a Wheatstone Linota are not big enough to allow you to move the original reeds around, to get the Jeffries system. On the draw RH side a Wheatstone 30 key has eb, g, bb, eb, f whereas the Jeffries has c#, eb, g, bb, d -- bigger reeds in each comparable chamber and slot.

 

What I would suggest would be to pull the original Wheatstone reeds for the notes you *really must change* and save them (with a diagram explaining their original location) with the instrument. Then, without modifying the reedpan in any way, I would suggest fitting some customized reeds to the original slots to give the pitches you want. Personally, I can usually get by without an eb in Irish music and don't mind a slightly different location for the draw g, so I would only need to fit a couple of additional reeds. ( I can also live without the press a on the RH side; if you really want that note in its Jeffries position, my suggestion may be trickier).

 

The additional reeds could be modified from vintage reeds or newly made by a concertina maker. They will be a little short for their pitch (or a little flat for their length) but if carefully made and/or retuned from quality reeds, and if the shoes are carefully filed to fit the existing slots, they will work just fine. A very slight loss of volume on these notes should be the only compromise.

 

The originality of the instrument will be completely restorable to its condition before the modification, and the instrument may be much more useful to its owner if he or she really prefers the Jeffries system.

 

PG

Edited by Paul Groff
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Thanks, Paul. That's a much better-informed and thought-out case for what I was trying to get at.

 

Daniel

 

I doubt that the reeds are easily interchangable, although it's been a while since I worked on that style of instrument. You would also need to do more that exchange reeds. The reed slots would most likely need to be altered. Where would you get the extra C# & D# etc? IMHO leave it as it is. As for the system best for Irish music, I can say that my orders from Ireland are split about 50/50 between the two systems. That, of course, is weighted more to Jeffries than US orders, but still indicates that the Wheatstone system is still very popular for Irish trad music, in Ireland. In fact, Chris Droney plays the Wheatstone system.

Frank, I agree with you that the chambers and slots for the RH side accidental row (draw) reeds of a Wheatstone Linota are not big enough to allow you to move the original reeds around, to get the Jeffries system. On the draw RH side a Wheatstone 30 key has eb, g, bb, eb, f whereas the Jeffries has c#, eb, g, bb, d -- bigger reeds in each comparable chamber and slot.

 

What I would suggest would be to pull the original Wheatstone reeds for the notes you *really must change* and save them (with a diagram explaining their original location) with the instrument. Then, without modifying the reedpan in any way, I would suggest fitting some customized reeds to the original slots to give the pitches you want. Personally, I can usually get by without an eb in Irish music and don't mind a slightly different location for the draw g, so I would only need to fit a couple of additional reeds. ( I can also live without the press a on the RH side; if you really want that note in its Jeffries position, my suggestion may be trickier).

 

The additional reeds could be modified from vintage reeds or newly made by a concertina maker. They will be a little short for their pitch (or a little flat for their length) but if carefully made and/or retuned from quality reeds, and if the shoes are carefully filed to fit the existing slots, they will work just fine. A very slight loss of volume on these notes should be the only compromise.

 

The originality of the instrument will be completely restorable to its condition before the modification, and the instrument may be much more useful to its owner if he or she really prefers the Jeffries system.

 

PG

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Yes, you could accomplish this by using custom-made reeds, with the shortcomings Paul has outlined. You would most likely have to send the instrument to a competent reedmaker, like Colin. If sending the instrument to someone like Colin, anything is possible. This is not something a typical player should or could attempt on his or her own.

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Thanks to Paul for a very helpful post. That is the way I’ll go – I’ll have access to some old reeds this summer and I should be able to adapt them to fit the Wheatstone. I’ve been playing a Jeffries system for some years now. Although I’ve been playing the Wheatstone for the past few weeks in the US, coming back to the Jeffries system has been a pleasure. I don’t deny that there are many fine players of ITM who play Wheatstones but in Clare, at least, one sees many more Jeffries and Jeffries system concertinas and players.

 

True, if you started the Wheatstone system then there would be no problem playing ITM - and if you wanted to switch from the Wheatstone to the Jeffries, or vice-versa, then there would likewise be no problem. It’s going from one to the other that I find tricky. Other differences as well make the transition difficult: different spring pressures, different button shapes, different rake of buttons, and different responses on the low reeds. I don’t know if spending the time and money to address these issues would be worth it in the long run. Like playing The Lads of Laoise, it is a work in progress.

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Like playing The Lads of Laoise, it is a work in progress.

 

Speaking of which, I was able to 'unlock' the tune a bit by using the pull low A on the G row instead of the push low A on the accidental row. It makes it much easier. What 'A' are you using yourself? I used to use mainly the low push A but now more and more I use the pull one, makes a big difference in a couple of tunes. There are others where you're still better with the push A in my opinion, like Wynn's #2.

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Like playing The Lads of Laoise, it is a work in progress.

 

Speaking of which, I was able to 'unlock' the tune a bit by using the pull low A on the G row instead of the push low A on the accidental row. It makes it much easier. What 'A' are you using yourself? I used to use mainly the low push A but now more and more I use the pull one, makes a big difference in a couple of tunes. There are others where you're still better with the push A in my opinion, like Wynn's #2.

 

 

Thanks Az-- I've been trying it a bit since your helpful suggestion. I have been using the cross-over bird-finger for the push-A. I still find using the little finger involves twisting my hand more than the push-A... but I'll try the pull A and see how that works. Thanks for the tip.

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Like playing The Lads of Laoise, it is a work in progress.

 

Speaking of which, I was able to 'unlock' the tune a bit by using the pull low A on the G row instead of the push low A on the accidental row. It makes it much easier. What 'A' are you using yourself? I used to use mainly the low push A but now more and more I use the pull one, makes a big difference in a couple of tunes. There are others where you're still better with the push A in my opinion, like Wynn's #2.

 

 

Thanks Az-- I've been trying it a bit since your helpful suggestion. I have been using the cross-over bird-finger for the push-A. I still find using the little finger involves twisting my hand more than the push-A... but I'll try the pull A and see how that works. Thanks for the tip.

 

No problem. Playing the 'A' itself isnt hard on either 'A'... it's the coming back to pull D I find easier when you're back from the pull A... since it doesnt involved a push-pull, I find it easier to pull the 'A' with the pinky and pull the 'D' afterward with the next finger...

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Like playing The Lads of Laoise, it is a work in progress.

 

Speaking of which, I was able to 'unlock' the tune a bit by using the pull low A on the G row instead of the push low A on the accidental row. It makes it much easier. What 'A' are you using yourself? I used to use mainly the low push A but now more and more I use the pull one, makes a big difference in a couple of tunes. There are others where you're still better with the push A in my opinion, like Wynn's #2.

 

 

Thanks Az-- I've been trying it a bit since your helpful suggestion. I have been using the cross-over bird-finger for the push-A. I still find using the little finger involves twisting my hand more than the push-A... but I'll try the pull A and see how that works. Thanks for the tip.

 

No problem. Playing the 'A' itself isnt hard on either 'A'... it's the coming back to pull D I find easier when you're back from the pull A... since it doesnt involved a push-pull, I find it easier to pull the 'A' with the pinky and pull the 'D' afterward with the next finger...

Thought this was an interesting discussion, so I had a go at seeing how I dealt with that tune. Probably after equal amounts of practice, I think I'd find the low Draw A the easier one to use, but I very much prefer the phrasing of the Push A followed by the Draw D. Yes the jump ( I use my ring finger for the A in this occurrence as well as for the low A roll or cran or whatever you want to call it ) takes quite a bit of practice to get up to speed, but it helps maintain the consistency of the phrasing, and I am always willing to put in the work for that. I tried out the middle finger on the low A but didn't find it any easier than the ring finger jump. I have been practicing a bunch of tunes ( like Green Fields of Glentown ) which give all those fingers a real work out, and it has paid off in finally being comfortable with the low end. I do use the Draw A both for chords and in the occasional tune where the phrasing is better, and while the reach for it is a little more than I'd like, I'm sure with practice I'd be completely comfortable with that too. Still for me Phrasing wins out and I feel like the Push A puts the emphasis at exactly the right place in the music ( like that is what it is there in the tune for ).

Dana

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Very interesting Dana. I agree that phrasing is very important. I think I adapted the philosophy at the moment where I'd like to be robust on tunes first, and then optimize phrasing later.

 

This year I will be working hard on strenghtening that pinky but also the two next fingers. They don't seem to be able to move freely on their own easily. I'm still having a hard time playing the first Wynne's #1 and #2, which pretty much does the same thing, goes down to low A on the push and then back up using the pinky F# in the mix. Yesterday I must have played the first part of #1 like 30 times, trying to strenghten the fingers. It's hard work.

 

So yeah I agree with you but until my left pinky & friends are very strong, the pull A will be quite handy.

 

The concertina (anglo at least) is such a mindblowing instrument... not only you have to deal with many ways to playing the same note, not only some studying of each tune is required to find the easiest path... easiest isnt enough because you also have to take into account the phrasing.

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I'm finding that the Anglo is 'straightforward' when played as though it were a mouthorgan or melodeon but much more complex when a C/G is used for other keys and types of tune. I am playing a lot of airs at the moment and find the phrasing and dynamics demand various buttons and bellows directions for smoothness and gracing. There is also the act of adding a appropriate drones and partial chords . I play a 26 button Jeffries so am a bit constrained. I also have a fully chromatic Jones but find that gives too much opportunity!

 

Who do people rate as players of slow tunes on concertina . I've seen some quite critical words about Noel Hill's playing of airs. I think NH is emulating the pipes. I like a harp or sean nos singing approach, it's just personal preference.

As a singer and whistle and flute player I also go for quite a lot of ornamentation.

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Back on topic - the lower buttons give everybody trouble. Green Fields is a very challenging tune on the C/G. I can manage it on the flute with little trouble, but that of course only entails jumping octaves, which is relatively easy to do. I've thought of doing that with the concertina. Does anybody else cheat in that fashion?

 

I am still trying to use the lower draw A (per Az's recommendation) and not having too much success. My hands are larger than Azalin's (I'm older) so I keep telling myself that if he can do it I can. I'll first get the other tunes I mentioned under my fingers before I start on Green Fields - although having that one down would mean more than Lads or Doctor Gilbert because of so much time below the middle D.

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Back on topic - the lower buttons give everybody trouble. Green Fields is a very challenging tune on the C/G. I can manage it on the flute with little trouble, but that of course only entails jumping octaves, which is relatively easy to do. I've thought of doing that with the concertina. Does anybody else cheat in that fashion?

 

I am still trying to use the lower draw A (per Az's recommendation) and not having too much success. My hands are larger than Azalin's (I'm older) so I keep telling myself that if he can do it I can. I'll first get the other tunes I mentioned under my fingers before I start on Green Fields - although having that one down would mean more than Lads or Doctor Gilbert because of so much time below the middle D.

I'm quite enthused about people tackling the low end rather than shying away from it no mater what route they take. I have a huge amount of sympathy for the difficulty of the process and the difficulty of getting the little finger and ring finger to behave and only want to say that they do respond to a bit of education eventually. Most of their lives they have been relegated to the role of grasping things unless you've played Piano or some similar instrument, so they never got the separate coordination of the first two fingers. Just keep at it. It is such a lot of fun to play those tunes that are full of the Low notes once you can pull it off. The more tunes you learn down there, the less impossible they seem.

 

I never considered jumping octaves not being a flute player, and my whistle skills never got challenged by tunes that needed it. Somebody needs to hold the low end though or the tune will just get changed and everybody will play it in octaves like that Sean Ryan tune which I vastly prefer not in octaves in what ever key has that F natural in it. ( it also fits very comfortably on the fiddle there as well ) Sorry for not being able to provide the name, but when you hear a tune called Sean Ryan's, it is a little like hearing one called Paddy Fahey's. Doesn't tell you much. Still, it is the one where people usually ( in the states at least ) play the B part an octave higher. Still, if you were playing with others, playing the low part of Green Fields up an octave might work quite nicely.

Dana

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Back on topic - the lower buttons give everybody trouble. Green Fields is a very challenging tune on the C/G. I can manage it on the flute with little trouble, but that of course only entails jumping octaves, which is relatively easy to do. I've thought of doing that with the concertina. Does anybody else cheat in that fashion?

 

I am still trying to use the lower draw A (per Az's recommendation) and not having too much success. My hands are larger than Azalin's (I'm older) so I keep telling myself that if he can do it I can. I'll first get the other tunes I mentioned under my fingers before I start on Green Fields - although having that one down would mean more than Lads or Doctor Gilbert because of so much time below the middle D.

I'm quite enthused about people tackling the low end rather than shying away from it no mater what route they take. I have a huge amount of sympathy for the difficulty of the process and the difficulty of getting the little finger and ring finger to behave and only want to say that they do respond to a bit of education eventually. Most of their lives they have been relegated to the role of grasping things unless you've played Piano or some similar instrument, so they never got the separate coordination of the first two fingers. Just keep at it. It is such a lot of fun to play those tunes that are full of the Low notes once you can pull it off. The more tunes you learn down there, the less impossible they seem.

 

I never considered jumping octaves not being a flute player, and my whistle skills never got challenged by tunes that needed it. Somebody needs to hold the low end though or the tune will just get changed and everybody will play it in octaves like that Sean Ryan tune which I vastly prefer not in octaves in what ever key has that F natural in it. ( it also fits very comfortably on the fiddle there as well ) Sorry for not being able to provide the name, but when you hear a tune called Sean Ryan's, it is a little like hearing one called Paddy Fahey's. Doesn't tell you much. Still, it is the one where people usually ( in the states at least ) play the B part an octave higher. Still, if you were playing with others, playing the low part of Green Fields up an octave might work quite nicely.

Dana

 

Is it Sean Ryan's "The Nightingale?"

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