Differences playing C/G Anglo 30 B Jeffries & 30 B Wheatstone

[David Levine]

What do you think are the most significant differences between the 30 button Wheatstone and Jeffries layouts? Do these differences matter? How do you work around them? How do you use them to your advantage? I am looking for information from Anglo players who have experience playing both Jeffries and Wheatstone 30 button C/G Anglos.

For years I have played a 30 button Jeffries. I now have the opportunity to get acquainted with the Wheatstone system. I've been playing a very good 1937 Wheatstone Linota, with a remarkably clear and bright sound that is never shrill. There is a depth and a richness to it that is very appealing. But I do miss the flexibility that the Jeffries layout offers.

 

The Jeffries system I refer to offers two C#/Eb buttons on the right hand top row, reversed on each button. The Wheatstone only has the one C#, a press on the index finger top row. I use it mostly by crossing my middle finger over my index finger to move from the LH B to the C#. At some point I will probably alter the layout by putting C#/Eb reeds into the dovetail slots for the second button and move the G# from the second to the third button. Is there a reason – aside from respect for historical preservation – not to do this change? I think it would make the Wheatstone a better player for ITM.

[Graham Collicutt]

What do you think are the most significant differences between the 30 button Wheatstone and Jeffries layouts? Do these differences matter? How do you work around them? How do you use them to your advantage? I am looking for information from Anglo players who have experience playing both Jeffries and Wheatstone 30 button C/G Anglos.

For years I have played a 30 button Jeffries. I now have the opportunity to get acquainted with the Wheatstone system. I've been playing a very good 1937 Wheatstone Linota, with a remarkably clear and bright sound that is never shrill. There is a depth and a richness to it that is very appealing. But I do miss the flexibility that the Jeffries layout offers.

 

The Jeffries system I refer to offers two C#/Eb buttons on the right hand top row, reversed on each button. The Wheatstone only has the one C#, a press on the index finger top row. I use it mostly by crossing my middle finger over my index finger to move from the LH B to the C#. At some point I will probably alter the layout by putting C#/Eb reeds into the dovetail slots for the second button and move the G# from the second to the third button. Is there a reason – aside from respect for historical preservation – not to do this change? I think it would make the Wheatstone a better player for ITM.

 

 

Hi David

 

I have changed from Jeffries to Wheatstone layout. I play mainly G/D but I do play both. With the C/G I bring my 2nd finger below my index finger to play B with 2nd finger, C# with index finger and D with 2nd finger. If I was to play C# with 2nd finger it would have to push index finger off the B. You have got B C# D all on push swapping sides.

 

I've got push A and pull G on the 2nd button which is standard, G# on the 3rd.

 

The advantages of Wheatstone layout :-

greater range of notes on right side

more suited to playing in F

 

Graham

[Lawrence Reeves]

I suppose you have tried the idea of C#/ C# on the same button, 1st on accidental row. I know that Dipper does this and a few other makers. It allows most of the instrument un-touched, and it can probably be done with a solder blob to flatten the D# down a step.

[David Levine]

Thanks Graham- Since I play Noel Hill's system I rarely use the B push on LH. It's always the B draw RH, and that's why I use the bird finger on the C# press. I do play in F but I haven't noticed any difference, playing in F, between the Wheatstone and the Jeffries layouts. Maybe my playing is not sophisticated enough that I'd notice a difference.

 

Hi Larry - yes, I've thought of making the C# work in both directions. Wally Carroll is doing that. I retuned the reed so I get an Eb rather than a duplicate C# - now it's standard Jeffries layout, which I'm used to. But even with duplicate C#s I'd still be chopping if I used the B draw in the C row - which is why Wally repeats the C# on the second button in. And I do use the Eb, about as much as I do on the flute, so I'd hate to lose it. It can add some nice color to a tune - as on the HP Thomond Bridge.

 

Has anybody else altered their Wheatstone to Jeffries layout in this regard?

[Ken_Coles]

I just learned to play both layouts, but I did that fairly early on, before it made any difference to my facility in playing. I can reset in a few minutes, though it is easier to do one system in an evening.

 

Ken

[david_boveri]

Thanks Graham- Since I play Noel Hill's system I rarely use the B push on LH. It's always the B draw RH, and that's why I use the bird finger on the C# press. I do play in F but I haven't noticed any difference, playing in F, between the Wheatstone and the Jeffries layouts. Maybe my playing is not sophisticated enough that I'd notice a difference.

 

Hi Larry - yes, I've thought of making the C# work in both directions. Wally Carroll is doing that. I retuned the reed so I get an Eb rather than a duplicate C# - now it's standard Jeffries layout, which I'm used to. But even with duplicate C#s I'd still be chopping if I used the B draw in the C row - which is why Wally repeats the C# on the second button in. And I do use the Eb, about as much as I do on the flute, so I'd hate to lose it. It can add some nice color to a tune - as on the HP Thomond Bridge.

 

Has anybody else altered their Wheatstone to Jeffries layout in this regard?

 

i am confused... you say that you use the noel hill system on you dont use the left hand push B. noel uses this button all the time! third finger A and push B are noel's favorite alternate fingerings. it is true that when he teaches the D scale, he teaches to do first finger B and first finger C#, but this is only to learn the scale. in actuality, i have never seen him jump those buttons, though i have seen him jump A to D without using third finger, something he does more often than many might realize.

 

he is very much married to that push button B while on the wheatstone layout. i dont use it as much as he does, because i have a jeffries layout, but i still end up using the push button B all the time, for phrasing reasons. he likes 2 C#'s on the first button for phrasing reasons (i guess i have never noticed him use the pull C# because i dont have it, but wally carroll says it is an essential part of noels repertoire, and i believe him). on his carroll he has that third C# on the push, second button, but last i talked to him, he did not use it. he said it was a good button to have and to use, but that he has been on wheatstone for so long that he got out of the habit of it.

 

one of the most stark examples for his use of push button B is in the key of A. he does not even list the pull B on the scale chart, though he will of course use it when situation permits.

 

that being said.... i do like the second finger C# a lot. i say do whatever you have to to make it playable for you, but give the push button a try. crossing fingers like that is no *good.

 

*personal opinion, based on the fact that swapping fingers is no good when it is not necessary. in the bottom octave it is quite necessary to cross your fingers to use C#)

[david_boveri]

as for the key of F... i do not play very much in *F. for the key of Bb jeffries is a clear advantage. the Bb on the right hand is just easier to get to, you have two Eb's. and in general, i just love the G on the third button pull rather than second button.

 

i'm going with jeffries with a third C# on the push for first button. i dont know if i'm going to like not having that extra Eb for playing in Bb. it's totally doable, but the phrasing just doesnt work out.

 

*i just did a quick check. i cant find anything that would be awkward about the key of F in jeffries, and dont think it is a matter of sophistication. bu that being said, i dont have any tunes to write home about in F, so i cant say much beyond that.

[David Levine]

David_boveri

i am confused... you say that you use the noel hill system on you dont use the left hand push B. noel uses this button all the time! third finger A and push B are noel's favorite alternate fingerings.

he is very much married to that push button B while on the wheatstone layout. i dont use it as much as he does, because i have a jeffries layout, but i still end up using the push button B all the time, for phrasing reasons. he likes 2 C#'s on the first button for phrasing reasons (i guess i have never noticed him use the pull C# because i dont have it, but wally carroll says it is an essential part of noels repertoire, and i believe him). on his carroll he has that third C# on the push, second button, but last i talked to him, he did not use it. he said it was a good button to have and to use, but that he has been on wheatstone for so long that he got out of the habit of it.

 

one of the most stark examples for his use of push button B is in the key of A. he does not even list the pull B on the scale chart, though he will of course use it when situation permits.

 

I suppose we could go on and on arguing about the Gospel of St. Noel. When I took some lessons from him in Lisdoonvarna in 1989 he was quite clear about using the B pull- but that was on a Jeffries system that we both were playing on at the time. He does not use the B push "all the time" on his Jeffries - or his Carroll. I never asked him if fingering would be changed on the Wheatstone system. I distinctly remember the detail that he went into about using the B pull - are you saying that this would be true only on the Jeffries and not on the Wheatsone? Or that in fact he would prefer the B push on the Jerffries also?

 

When playing in the key of A - with a Jeffries with a second C# on the second button - I see no reason why one could not use the B draw - or why Noel would not recommend it when you change key. The B draw has a stronger, clearer sound. I do use the B press on occasion (e.g., triplet B-C#-D) but seldom unless I had to.

 

I changed my Carroll so that, as on my 30B Jeffries, I have the first two buttons LH 3rd. row as C#/D#, though reversed on each button. The point of my initial post was whether the Wheatstone system demanded different fingering. Noel isn't here to ask, but you seem to suggest that this is in fact the case.

[david_boveri]

David_boveri

i am confused... you say that you use the noel hill system on you dont use the left hand push B. noel uses this button all the time! third finger A and push B are noel's favorite alternate fingerings.

he is very much married to that push button B while on the wheatstone layout. i dont use it as much as he does, because i have a jeffries layout, but i still end up using the push button B all the time, for phrasing reasons. he likes 2 C#'s on the first button for phrasing reasons (i guess i have never noticed him use the pull C# because i dont have it, but wally carroll says it is an essential part of noels repertoire, and i believe him). on his carroll he has that third C# on the push, second button, but last i talked to him, he did not use it. he said it was a good button to have and to use, but that he has been on wheatstone for so long that he got out of the habit of it.

 

one of the most stark examples for his use of push button B is in the key of A. he does not even list the pull B on the scale chart, though he will of course use it when situation permits.

 

I suppose we could go on and on arguing about the Gospel of St. Noel. When I took some lessons from him in Lisdoonvarna in 1989 he was quite clear about using the B pull- but that was on a Jeffries system that we both were playing on at the time. He does not use the B push "all the time" on his Jeffries - or his Carroll. I never asked him if fingering would be changed on the Wheatstone system. I distinctly remember the detail that he went into about using the B pull - are you saying that this would be true only on the Jeffries and not on the Wheatsone? Or that in fact he would prefer the B push on the Jerffries also?

 

When playing in the key of A - with a Jeffries with a second C# on the second button - I see no reason why one could not use the B draw - or why Noel would not recommend it when you change key. The B draw has a stronger, clearer sound. I do use the B press on occasion (e.g., triplet B-C#-D) but seldom unless I had to.

 

I changed my Carroll so that, as on my 30B Jeffries, I have the first two buttons LH 3rd. row as C#/D#, though reversed on each button. The point of my initial post was whether the Wheatstone system demanded different fingering. Noel isn't here to ask, but you seem to suggest that this is in fact the case.

 

1989 is a long time ago. noel primarily plays wheatstones now, not jeffries, because he thinks that jeffries are too difficult to maintain. you are correct in surmising that he would recommend using pull B on jeffries. he does not teach me to use push B on the jeffries layout, because of the push c# on the second button. i guess i was not talking about jeffries because, you know... you were asking about wheatstone from the perspective of noel's system. the thing is that when he teaches, he teaches wheatstone, and as i learned many tunes on wheatstone before switching to jeffries, i have several tunes in my repertoire where i play them as he teaches everyone as a whole, and not as how he has taught the sub group of jeffries system players.

 

the problem is i have never asked him if he uses push B when playing on a jeffries, but i would surmise he does from time to time. not because it worked better, but he told me that he has gotten into the habit of using push B. on his new carroll, he has 3 c#'s, but still uses the first button push c# rather than the second. he has recommended me use the second button, but told me that he has been using the first button for so long that he really has not made the trouble to switch yet. this was last year. he does use the first button pull c#, as he has had all his wheatstones modified to have this as well.

 

the reason he uses push button B for the key of A is because he plays on wheatstone, and teaches wheatstone. as i said, the push B is the only one listed on his scale chart, which dates from 2 years ago. i asked him if i could use pull B, and he said of course, since i had a jeffries layout.

 

when was the last time you asked him about his push B usage on his carroll or wheatstones? i did this but last year, and the year prior, and the year prior... no gospel deliberation needed there. i know that noel would not object to the way you play jeffries system, as he taught it to you, but i know that noel would not teach you and does not teach you to cross over for c# on the wheatstone system. on the scale chart he gives students (i have personally seen him make at least 30), he does not put the push B on for the scale of D. i asked him about this, and how he wanted us to finger the scale: he said to just jump from the B to the c#. now, of course, this was so that i could learn how to use his system, and i am sure when he plays the scale of D he would use B push. i have seen him jump other buttons, but never this particular one, as it is awkward.

 

ask wally or noel--i'm full of incessant questions, and can get a bit annoying. i dont know everything he does yet, and do not consider myself an expert at the gospel of noel as you put it, but i think i am a pretty good adept in book of B push: verses push through pull.