Daniel Hersh Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 I'm quoting the following from an old thread to raise a question that I've been wondering about. I've got a 20-button mahogany-ended G/D Lachenal, restored and tuned by Paul Groff a few years back, that's got exceptional reeds for that model and is therefore quite responsive and has a very nice tone. However, it also has, not surprisingly, a pretty noisy action. I thought about having it replaced with a riveted action but can't really justify the cost. So here's what I'm wondering: thinking about the Edgley-style action described below, might it be possible to address the problem with a simpler modification, leaving the original levers in place but replacing the pivots and/or springs? Daniel John,Between the button and the pad your Jones has a small rectangular pivot plate with a tang that anchors it into the action board. There is a small rectangular opening cut into the plate thru which the lever arm pivots up and down. A spring provides pressure on the arm to keep the pad down AND hold the lever arm in place in the pivot plate. With a rivet action the pivot plate is parallel to the lever arm. A hole is drilled in the plate and the lever arm. A rivet secures the arm to the pivot plate. No spring pressure is needed to keep the lever arm in place. Spring pressure can be totally devoted to the pad. Rivet action generally keeps the arms lined up with the pad holes better than the "hook and arm" action desribed in the first paragraph. Again, generally speaking, rivet action can be more lightly sprung than hook and lever. Frank Edgley ingeniously uses two springs with his hook and lever action. One spring's primary purpose is to keep the lever arm tight against the pivot; The other spring is devoted to applying pressure to the pad. Frank's system works very well and results in a hook and lever system that rivals the smoothness of a rivet action. Btw most Jones are found with a rivet action. Broad steel reeds were also a feature on many Jones. They are indeed broader (width) than most other concertina reeds. They have their fans. To me their tone is a little warmer and more rounded than the Lachenal or Wheatstone sound. Individual perception may vary. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takayuki YAGI Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 John,Frank Edgley ingeniously uses two springs with his hook and lever action. One spring's primary purpose is to keep the lever arm tight against the pivot; The other spring is devoted to applying pressure to the pad. Frank's system works very well and results in a hook and lever system that rivals the smoothness of a rivet action. Oh, I did not notice that Edgley uses hooked action . I feel that smoothness of the Edgley action is even as rivet actions I tried (Geuns-Wakker and Connor rebuild Lachenal). A couple of minutes ago I opened my Edgley to see the action (for the first time I think) and yes, there are 2 to 3 springs for each levers. I am not sure that adding spring to Lachenal goes well or not because the shape of the levers are different for Lachenal and Edgley. Lachenal levers are V-shaped to accomodate hook and Edgley lever is straight. -- Taka Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theo Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 I think I can see 3 springs on most of the levers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Hersh Posted January 10, 2009 Author Share Posted January 10, 2009 (edited) Me too. I think that I see two springs for each lever, one on either side of the pivot, to push the lever up against the pivot as described by Greg, with the third one doing the usual task of pushing the lever up near the button/key to apply downward pressure to the pad on the other end of the lever. Taka, thanks for posting the picture. It still seems to me that this might be worth a try on a Lachenal action. Mine has staple type pivots which I think might actually work better with this than Lachenal's other, slot-in-a-post pivots. Any other comments out there on this idea? Daniel I think I can see 3 springs on most of the levers. Edited January 10, 2009 by Daniel Hersh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Jowaisas Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 Daniel, Let us know how this turns out! You might want to try this on a button/lever by button/lever basis monitoring and evaluating your results as you go. It may be very useful to have a number of different springs available: lefts, rights, different lengths and perhaps with different tensions and made from different materials. I suspect it will take some experimenting to find the right combination of spring type and spring location in relation to the lever and pivot. Keep an eye on your pivot posts to make sure they are not popping out with any extra spring pressure. You have a nice instrument and I hope this works for you. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theo Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 Any other comments out there on this idea? The other big difference in the Edgley action is that the lever is bent 90º where it goes through the button. This should help to avoid another problem of the traditional design caused by the bushing restricting lever movement, which can be a real problem, especially on very short levers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takayuki YAGI Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 I think I can see 3 springs on most of the levers. Me too. I think that I see two springs for each lever, one on either side of the pivot, to push the lever up against the pivot as described by Greg. with the third one doing the usual task of pushing the lever up near the button/key to apply downward pressure to the pad on the other end of the lever. Yes, the longest levers have 3 springs each. Shorter levers including further row in the photo have 2 springs each. Any other comments out there on this idea? The other big difference in the Edgley action is that the lever is bent 90º where it goes through the button. This should help to avoid another problem of the traditional design caused by the bushing restricting lever movement, which can be a real problem, especially on very short levers. Ah, that's the point I haven't noticed. Then I now understand the straight lever shape fits well. If the lever goes through the button in 0º as traditional design, straight lever will slide along the pivot. I would like to hear how it turnes out too . -- Taka Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miikae Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 Well spotted Theo , as that explains why more than one spring was needed here, so to cancel out sideways movement (First Law of Motion) of the lever arm and possibly a third to ensure it stayed where it should be with a little more force added. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveS Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 I'm amazed by all these springs. Do they add any significant 'weight' to the feel of a button for a player? Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takayuki YAGI Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 (edited) I'm amazed by all these springs. Do they add any significant 'weight' to the feel of a button for a player? Steve Not really. I feel this Edgley button pressure is only slightly heavier than Geuns or Connor-Lachenal with rivet actions and quite lighter than my Lachenals. I do not have force gauge so it is difficult to do direct comparison though. I suppose spring force of the Edgley might be lighter than standard one. Actually he uses springs with different lengths combined for this one concertina. As Greg indicated in above comment, I think it was the result of study. -- Taka edited for typo Edited January 11, 2009 by Takayuki YAGI Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Hersh Posted January 10, 2009 Author Share Posted January 10, 2009 Yikes! That's a good point about the pivot posts popping out. I'll have to think about whether I really want to attempt this myself. I'm much better with concepts than execution for this sort of thing. I don't have any trouble playing a concertina, but working on one, beyond the most basic tasks, is another matter. Perhaps I'll contact Frank to see if he'd be interested in doing it himself, or in selling or suggesting specs for the extra springs based on lever length. Thanks, everyone, for your responses. Daniel Daniel,Let us know how this turns out! You might want to try this on a button/lever by button/lever basis monitoring and evaluating your results as you go. It may be very useful to have a number of different springs available: lefts, rights, different lengths and perhaps with different tensions and made from different materials. I suspect it will take some experimenting to find the right combination of spring type and spring location in relation to the lever and pivot. Keep an eye on your pivot posts to make sure they are not popping out with any extra spring pressure. You have a nice instrument and I hope this works for you. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theo Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 I'll have to think about whether I really want to attempt this myself. I suggest that you try making a new lever and fit it in the Edgeley style. Just do one, if it works out go on to the others, if not just replace the original. The only thing you might damage is a pad, which would be easily replaced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Hersh Posted January 11, 2009 Author Share Posted January 11, 2009 I see your point, and I would imagine that this would be a good approach for someone with your skills and experience. For me, though, I was thinking of starting out by just adding springs to see if that would do the trick. But I'm not sure that I'm even up to doing that on my own. I'll have to think about whether I really want to attempt this myself.I suggest that you try making a new lever and fit it in the Edgeley style. Just do one, if it works out go on to the others, if not just replace the original. The only thing you might damage is a pad, which would be easily replaced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ceemonster Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 (edited) now that you mention it....who does do this work of converting slow post-and-lever to riveted? any clue of an approx. price for such a conversion? i have a marcus deluxe that i've been meaning to sell due to the slowness of its action for fast irish dance music, but i keep putting off selling because i think it is such a lovely object. it would be great to keep it as a practice instrument, but it slows me down too much now. actually, that is the thing about the endorsements on discussion sites by people who have bumped up from stagis or rochelles but don't actually play to speed.....the fact is that lovely as they are, quite a few of the hybrids are cumbersome for irish dance playing. i also put the norman in this category despite its riveted action. there is something stuffy and slow-to-respond about the reeds, particularly on the left side, so that the advantage of riveted action is canceled out by the jam-up in the valves.....i have seen other comments about this, so it's not just me. there is a thread going right now about accordion reeds vs concertina reeds, and i like high-grade accordion reeds as much as i like concertina reeds....but now that hybrids are running two grand and up, there are no ifs, ands or buts about the fact that they need to respond as quickly and easily as a suttner or whatever. it's not enough to be faster than a stagi or equal to a lachenal. at two grand plus and accordion reeds, it needs to be very fast and responsive. anyway, i hadn't considered the option of converting the action on the marcus, but might if it wasn't prohibitively expensive. i actually like it a lot as an object. it is very beautifully crafted.... Edited January 24, 2009 by ceemonster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 Hi Have a look at Wim Wakkers site. He does some convertions chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henrik Müller Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 Thanks for posting this, Taka. I knew that there was something special about the Edgley action and always wondered what. /Henrik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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