Jon C. Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 Hi, I thought I would try my hand at making reeds. I plan on cutting the reed frames from brass with my CNC mill. Just ordered up some spring steel 1095 clock spring Rc 50. I wlll sheer cut rough tounges, then presision grind them with this grinder my friend has. It is a interesting contraption that he has resurected, kind of a mill ste up, with a presision grinder. He also has a stereo microscope for viewing and setting the tounge, that may come in handy. Here is a photo of the grinder: I need to work out a jig to hold the tounge while grinding, the grinder can be set to the angle to be ground. I realize that i will need very tight tolerances like .02 mm, but it just might work... It is all in fun, anyway. More to come... Take care, Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Stout Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 I found the description with pictures on the concertinaconnection web site of how Wim Wakker made the Traveler quite interesting. The section on reeds starts at http://www.concertinaconnection.com/traveler%202.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dana Johnson Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 Hi,I thought I would try my hand at making reeds. I plan on cutting the reed frames from brass with my CNC mill. Just ordered up some spring steel 1095 clock spring Rc 50. I wlll sheer cut rough tounges, then presision grind them with this grinder my friend has. It is a interesting contraption that he has resurected, kind of a mill ste up, with a presision grinder. He also has a stereo microscope for viewing and setting the tounge, that may come in handy. Here is a photo of the grinder: I need to work out a jig to hold the tounge while grinding, the grinder can be set to the angle to be ground. I realize that i will need very tight tolerances like .02 mm, but it just might work... It is all in fun, anyway. More to come... Take care, Jon If you are just doing a limited number of reeds, you'll be better off learning to file them and dispense with the grinder. The grinding operation is a great one, but isn't very time/ cost effective for small numbers of reeds. I grind all my reeds on a CNC surface grinder for repeatability since I grind 50+ reeds of the same note at the same time using a very powerful, fine pole Magnetic chuck I made specifically for the thin reed stock. I find that I can hold them to about 10 cents if I am very careful, but my machine is repeatable to about 50 millionths of an inch. Even then, things like wheel wear ( using CBN super abrasive wheels ) and tiny specks of dust on the chuck can shim, up the reeds enough to cause them to be a different thickness when done. If you are trying to repeat your measurements, you have to be very careful, but if you do it all with a file by hand, you just file until it is right and don't worry about hitting an exact number. You need to remember that reeds are not flat, or tapered in a straight line in thickness. Each note is a complex curve that adjusts the pitch of the reed at it's given length to a particular stiffness so that ideally, the reeds will end up both feeling similar to play, and be strong enough to play loudly without choking or playing flat, but still be light enough to be responsive. Make a few sets by hand and you will begin to get a feel for this especially if you have a good set to compare them to. Before I went to CNC, I made a special template following jig that you could mount a good reed to and as you turned the feed screw, the chuck would raise and lower to follow the shape of the reed template, grinding the new reed to match. It was good for getting things in the ball park, but as I realized the need for controlling the stiffness of the reeds, I needed to have much more control over the actual profile of the reed which was much easier to do on a drawing on the computer. For production purposes, this made sense, but it took me two months of eight hour days at the computer finalizing my reed profiles. I could have hand filed a lot of reeds in that time. ( and gotten reasonably good at it ) I might do 1000+ reeds a year, and it saves me a lot of time to do them on the CNC and only have a little fitting and fine tuning left, but if I was doing a one off special set, or a more limited number of instruments, I'd file them and skip the grinder altogether. ( of course now that I have it and have put in the time developing the reed profiles, I would be foolish not to use it. ) Plenty of good reed makers never used a grinder. It is amazing what you can do with simple tools attached to a human brain. By the way the microscope will do wonders for your reed fitting. Reeds are also less simple than they look. As an example, the sides of the frames are relieved to allow tighter fitting reeds without risking pinching when the wood of the reed pan swells. It is only a few thousandths of an inch ( sorry, I'm not on the metric system ) but it makes a lot of difference. It isn't rocket science but figure it is something you will continue to improve at for years as you understand better what makes a good reed tick. Dana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon C. Posted January 4, 2009 Author Share Posted January 4, 2009 Hi,I thought I would try my hand at making reeds. I plan on cutting the reed frames from brass with my CNC mill. Just ordered up some spring steel 1095 clock spring Rc 50. I wlll sheer cut rough tounges, then presision grind them with this grinder my friend has. It is a interesting contraption that he has resurected, kind of a mill ste up, with a presision grinder. He also has a stereo microscope for viewing and setting the tounge, that may come in handy. Here is a photo of the grinder: I need to work out a jig to hold the tounge while grinding, the grinder can be set to the angle to be ground. I realize that i will need very tight tolerances like .02 mm, but it just might work... It is all in fun, anyway. More to come... Take care, Jon If you are just doing a limited number of reeds, you'll be better off learning to file them and dispense with the grinder. The grinding operation is a great one, but isn't very time/ cost effective for small numbers of reeds. I grind all my reeds on a CNC surface grinder for repeatability since I grind 50+ reeds of the same note at the same time using a very powerful, fine pole Magnetic chuck I made specifically for the thin reed stock. I find that I can hold them to about 10 cents if I am very careful, but my machine is repeatable to about 50 millionths of an inch. Even then, things like wheel wear ( using CBN super abrasive wheels ) and tiny specks of dust on the chuck can shim, up the reeds enough to cause them to be a different thickness when done. If you are trying to repeat your measurements, you have to be very careful, but if you do it all with a file by hand, you just file until it is right and don't worry about hitting an exact number. You need to remember that reeds are not flat, or tapered in a straight line in thickness. Each note is a complex curve that adjusts the pitch of the reed at it's given length to a particular stiffness so that ideally, the reeds will end up both feeling similar to play, and be strong enough to play loudly without choking or playing flat, but still be light enough to be responsive. Make a few sets by hand and you will begin to get a feel for this especially if you have a good set to compare them to. Before I went to CNC, I made a special template following jig that you could mount a good reed to and as you turned the feed screw, the chuck would raise and lower to follow the shape of the reed template, grinding the new reed to match. It was good for getting things in the ball park, but as I realized the need for controlling the stiffness of the reeds, I needed to have much more control over the actual profile of the reed which was much easier to do on a drawing on the computer. For production purposes, this made sense, but it took me two months of eight hour days at the computer finalizing my reed profiles. I could have hand filed a lot of reeds in that time. ( and gotten reasonably good at it ) I might do 1000+ reeds a year, and it saves me a lot of time to do them on the CNC and only have a little fitting and fine tuning left, but if I was doing a one off special set, or a more limited number of instruments, I'd file them and skip the grinder altogether. ( of course now that I have it and have put in the time developing the reed profiles, I would be foolish not to use it. ) Plenty of good reed makers never used a grinder. It is amazing what you can do with simple tools attached to a human brain. By the way the microscope will do wonders for your reed fitting. Reeds are also less simple than they look. As an example, the sides of the frames are relieved to allow tighter fitting reeds without risking pinching when the wood of the reed pan swells. It is only a few thousandths of an inch ( sorry, I'm not on the metric system ) but it makes a lot of difference. It isn't rocket science but figure it is something you will continue to improve at for years as you understand better what makes a good reed tick. Dana Thanks for the replys. I realize that the reed is not a flat piece of steel. I wasn't going to use this grinder for the contour of the reed, that was going to be done with a file. I planned on using this machine to shape the outside edge of the tounge, and the microscope to set the reed. I also realize that there is a bevel on the inside of the reed frame. Wim Wakker explains it pretty well on his website. I plan on copying a good set of reeds, I realize that it is a learning curve, that is the fun part of the project. I do like the idea of using the CNC, but I will get filing! I don't think the early makers had anything but some files when they cut the originals, they would have loved your set up! I don't plan on making a thousand reeds, but may have to to get one set right! Take care, and thanks for the input! Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon C. Posted January 4, 2009 Author Share Posted January 4, 2009 This is a interesting description from Geoffrey Crabb on the way thye made the reeds: http://www.concertina.net/gc_make_reeds.html ...Fitting The tongue strips were then matched to their respective reed frames and filed along each edge and tip so that they would pass through the reed slot with absolute minimum side clearance. It was very important that the underside edges of the tongue were left clean, sharp and free of burrs. When this operation was completed, the tongues were individually 'voiced'. Voicing is the process where the top surface of the tongue was contoured by filing to allow proper flexing of the tongue and to roughly 'tune' it to vibrate at the intended note frequency. To facilitate voicing, the partially processed reed tongue was temporarily clamped to its reed frame and a light line scribed across the tongues upper face where it emerged from the block. The tongue was then removed from the reed frame and clamped in a hand-vice, by the extended tail, up to the scribed mark. The exposed part of the tongue was then held on a suitable block arranged at right angles to the maker and the top surface filed to meet the aforesaid conditions. (The file would be held at right angles to the tongue but would be moved at 45 degrees diagonally across the tongue). It was most important that the tongue be filed equally across its whole width to avoid distortion when vibrating. Occasionally, the tongue would be held to the ear and flicked or 'pinged' to ascertain the nearness of the note produced to that required. (A master reed would be sounded in a tuning bellows for reference)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henrik Müller Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 Hi,I thought I would try my hand at making reeds. I plan on cutting the reed frames from brass with my CNC mill. ... ... It is all in fun, anyway. More to come... Take care, Jon Blast! This doesn't fit into my kitchen /Henrik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon C. Posted January 8, 2009 Author Share Posted January 8, 2009 My first reed making project will be to make some better fitting reed tounges on that little Lachenal I am re-manufacturing. I can see why everyone disses the maker! one of the lower reeds had quite a bit of slop between the reed shoe and the reed. The smaller ones have tighter tolerance, and might be passable. I had to reset 5 tounges so far that were mis-alligned in there frames. I am using my jeweller magnified glasses, and a bright light to allign them. The lachenal has been valuable as a training tool, on how not to build a concertina... Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Marino Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 Jon, Amen to that. Rebuilding a Lachenal English for the wife, in which includes new bellows, new mechanism and most of the reeds need new tongues. I'll be mapping the reed shoes so that I can use them as a basis for cutting my own in the future on the CNC mill I have (desk top version, 3 axis, gantry). Reed grinding I am looking at spending some time with some masters of that craft (harmonica reed makers) to get a better idea of what needs to be done to make the best shape and get the most stable response in balance with a reasonable life span. Henrick, If you ever need some milling done let me know as while I am gearing the mill up for more use, if I can help with something will do what I can. Dana, Thank you, Thank you very very much for sharing that type of knowledge and information as it helps those of us climbing the learning curve to avoid going down blind alleyways before we start. It saves us huge amount of hours and allows to continue the learning curve to reach as high as we can. There are many "Giants" on this form and you are one of them; that we who are starting stand on the shoulders of. No, this is not flattery, just honesty. Considering the vast amount of improvement in quality control of alloy structure I am still looking at trying out some brass reeded instruments as a test bed to see how folks like them as there is a bit of a difference in the voice you get from them. Yes they won't last as long as Steel if both are treated with the same level of care, but 80+ years of playability is a long time. Many a steel reed instrument I have seen has had to deal with the problem of rust over that kind of time period and rust never sleeps. Good luck Jon and once I get some pics done will put them up on the web. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henrik Müller Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 ...Henrick, If you ever need some milling done let me know as while I am gearing the mill up for more use, if I can help with something will do what I can ... Hello, Michael - A very interesting offer, thank you! I have put it on my mind. /Henrik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon C. Posted January 17, 2009 Author Share Posted January 17, 2009 Jon, Amen to that. Rebuilding a Lachenal English for the wife, in which includes new bellows, new mechanism and most of the reeds need new tongues. I'll be mapping the reed shoes so that I can use them as a basis for cutting my own in the future on the CNC mill I have (desk top version, 3 axis, gantry). Reed grinding I am looking at spending some time with some masters of that craft (harmonica reed makers) to get a better idea of what needs to be done to make the best shape and get the most stable response in balance with a reasonable life span. Henrick, If you ever need some milling done let me know as while I am gearing the mill up for more use, if I can help with something will do what I can. Dana, Thank you, Thank you very very much for sharing that type of knowledge and information as it helps those of us climbing the learning curve to avoid going down blind alleyways before we start. It saves us huge amount of hours and allows to continue the learning curve to reach as high as we can. There are many "Giants" on this form and you are one of them; that we who are starting stand on the shoulders of. No, this is not flattery, just honesty. Considering the vast amount of improvement in quality control of alloy structure I am still looking at trying out some brass reeded instruments as a test bed to see how folks like them as there is a bit of a difference in the voice you get from them. Yes they won't last as long as Steel if both are treated with the same level of care, but 80+ years of playability is a long time. Many a steel reed instrument I have seen has had to deal with the problem of rust over that kind of time period and rust never sleeps. Good luck Jon and once I get some pics done will put them up on the web. Michael Hi Michael, That sounds like a big project! Lots of parts on those English concertina's, that is why I am rebuilding a 20 key, less parts! That would be interesting to talk to a harmonica reed maker, small reeds!... Interesting about rusting reeds, the Jones reeds, don't have a speck of rust on them, I guess if you are near the ocean, you would have more problems, then someone in a dryer climate. I guess you could keep some desicant in the case to keep the moisture down. Looking forward to seeing photos when you progress in your projects. Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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