Interesting Perspective

[JimLucas]

In the latest Concertina World, contributor Robert Harvey tells about taking up the concertina, first the English, but eventually the Maccann duet. In contrast to the English, where the notes in the two hands interleave to make a scale, the "duets" -- Maccann, Crane/Triumph, Jeffries, Hayden, etc. -- have complete scales in each hand, with lower notes on the left and higher notes on the right.

 

RH then makes the observation: "All of these systems are chromatic; the diatonic duet is commonly called the Anglo."

 

I like it!

[geoffwright]

I was also interested by the Triumph layout diagram, which seemed a cross between an english and an anglo and went something like left,right,middle all the way up the scale. Seemed most logical.

[Chris Timson]

the diatonic duet is commonly called the Anglo

Since elsewhere in the issue he says he thinks the anglo should be known as the diatonic duet, this is clearly a hangup of his.

 

Geoff: the limited fiddling around with the Crane (Triumph) system I have done leads me to agree - a nice system altogether, and one with great potential.

 

Chris

[JimLucas]

I was also interested by the Triumph layout diagram,....

For anyone else who might be interested, here on the Maccann-duet web site are a couple of resources (the Crane tutor and the Wheatstone fingering charts) which display the Crane/Triumph (2 names for 1 system) layout.

[JimLucas]

the diatonic duet is commonly called the Anglo

Since elsewhere in the issue he says he thinks the anglo should be known as the diatonic duet, this is clearly a hangup of his.

I would be inclined to describe it as an "opinion" or "viewpoint".

[stuart estell]

I would be inclined to describe it as an "opinion" or "viewpoint".

Yes - in fact when I read that description of the anglo as a "diatonic duet" I actually thought that was a perfectly logical way of describing what gets rather nebulously referred to as "english-style" anglo playing.

 

Although I suppose you could just sellotape down the outer columns of buttons on a Crane and call it the same thing

[Nick Oliver at home]

<pedant mode>

 

No - the Anglo is not the 'diatonic duet'. Duet systems are distinguished by having an overlap between the right hand side and the left hand side so that you can accompany yourself, as it were, and there is no overlap on the Anglo (or on the Jeffries 'Duet' either, I believe).

 

The name Anglo is perfectly satisfactory (and has the advantage of being very well known) as it has English style construction (seperate reed-pans and English style reeds) and the German fingering system - hence Anglo-German. A German concertina has the accordion-style reed block, and of course, the German diatonic fingering system. A modern instrument with German-style reed block and 'English' fingering kinda needs a name, but 'English with Accordion reeds' seems to do for the moment.

 

</pedant mode>

 

Nick (Anglo player married to an English player)

[Chris Timson]

No - the Anglo is not the 'diatonic duet'.

Completely agree. In the Concertina FAQ, when talking about the different systems I say "The low notes on all anglos are on the left hand side, and the high notes on the right, which brings us on to the last type of concertina... Duet Concertinas", and I think that's a good way to keep the narrative flow going, but to go from there to an assertion that the anglo is a type of duet - that would be a bridge too far, for me.

 

Chris

 

Edited once again due to the effects of typo.exe

Edited March 15, 2004 by Chris Timson

[Paul Groff]

Nick and Chris,

 

I agree with you that by definition anglos are not duets.

 

However, Nick, every anglo system I have seen does have some (sometimes quite a few) notes that are present in the same octave on both sides, often on different rows (e.g. C row right side, G row left side) and sometimes in different bellows directions. I have never heard this area of "overlap" in the register called a "double manual" in an anglo (as it has been with the duets; cf. organ technique), but it is very important in many styles of anglo playing. In general, the more notes above 30 on an anglo, the more notes are duplicated on both sides, in both Jeffries and Wheatstone systems, especially those with 36 or more keys. But even a typical 20 key C/G will have B, c, d, and e present on both left and right.

 

I think even the "little" 48 key Jeffries Duets have at least a few notes of "double manual," but in general they seem to have less overlap than Maccann or Crane duets.

 

Paul

Edited March 15, 2004 by Paul Groff

[stuart estell]

"The low notes on all anglos are on the left hand side, and the high notes on the right, which brings us on to the last type of concertina... Duet Concertinas", and I think that's a good way to keep the narrative flow going, but to go from there to an assertion that the anglo is a type of duet - that would be a bridge too far, for me.

Time for me to do some hasty backpedalling...

 

Where it initially struck a chord with me was in thinking in terms of playing styles, specifically the left hand bass line plus chords/right hand melody approach which can be common to both species; but granted, having been thinking about this on my drive home, the similarities are fairly trivial in the face of the far more fundamental differences.

 

So yes, point taken, I'll engage my brain more fully before opening my mouth next time

[JimLucas]

<pedant mode>

No - the Anglo is not the 'diatonic duet'. Duet systems are distinguished by having an overlap between the right hand side  and the left hand side so that you can accompany yourself, as it were, and there is no overlap on the Anglo (or on the Jeffries 'Duet' either, I believe).

I'll take your "pedant" and raise you one!

 

The 51-button Jeffries duet layout given here by Nick Robertshaw has a 5-note overlap.

 

Paul Groff has noted that anglos also have overlap. Certainly, all I've known do.

 

The overlap between the hands is not what makes it a "duet". Nor do I think that is what makes it "so that you can accompany yourself", rather the fact that there's a full scale in each hand. But guess what? Both those features are shared by both anglos and duets.

 

The name Anglo is perfectly satisfactory (and has the advantage of being very well known)...

No - the Anglo is not the 'diatonic duet'.

Completely agree.

BH, guys! (Brits will certainly know what expletive I've abbreviated. Ole the Dane will understand that I'm suppressing a grin because of a completely unrelated meaning. ) The way you reacted, one would think I'd said, "Your mother plays Lady of Spain!"

 

This isn't an attempt to change/subvert the common terminology. I just thought it was an interesting alternative way of viewing relationships among the different features of the different systems.

 

A German concertina has the accordion-style reed block, and of course, the German diatonic fingering system.

I found that a familiar -- and useful -- distinction 25-30 years ago. However, these days few people seem to know the term "German concertina", but instead consider those instruments also to be "anglos".

 

</pedant mode>

 

Nick (Anglo player married to an English player)

But you're an English anglo player, no?

[JimLucas]

...the similarities are fairly trivial in the face of the far more fundamental differences.

"Trivial" and "fundamental", like so many concepts, are very much matters of personal opinion and perspective.

 

I'm tempted to cite examples from politics or religion, but there are limits to my foolishness. Instead I'll cite the example of a friend:

 

..."So you're buying a new car? What kind are you looking for?"

..."Oh, it doesn't matter, as long as it's purple."

 

And she -- a hard-nosed businesswoman -- was quite serious!

[JimLucas]

I have never heard this area of "overlap" in the register called a "double manual" in an anglo (as it has been with the duets; cf. organ technique),....

Interesting. Until now, I have never encountered it used to describe duets.

To me it seems an attempt by "outsiders" to use terminology they are familiar with, rather than standard concertina terminology.

 

(I could be wrong, of course. But if I am, I expect SC and WW to let me know. )

[JimLucas]

In the Concertina FAQ, when talking about the different systems I say "The low notes on all anglos are on the left hand side, and the high notes on the right, which brings us on to the last type of concertina... Duet Concertinas", and I think that's a good way to keep the narrative flow going, but to go from there to an assertion that the anglo is a type of duet - that would be a bridge too far, for me.

As I said, I'm not asking for a change in terminology. I think it's useful to have separate names for anglos and duets. And Chris' "narrative flow" follows the historical development. The anglo was not conceived as "a kind of" duet. The difference is significant.

 

BUT, I challenge you all to provide a definition of "duet concertina" which includes all the common duet systems yet excludes the anglo, without explicitly mentioning the unisonoric/bisonoric distinction. As far as I can see, that is the only distinguishing feature.

[Chris Timson]

The way you reacted, one would think I'd said, "Your mother plays Lady of Spain!" 

Time for me to say "Que?" again, I think. If my mother were to play "Lady of Spain", I would be surprised - after all, she's shown no signs of playing a musical instrument in all the time I've known her (which is, ooooh, 50-odd years now), but if she did, for the sake of argument, why should that upset me?

 

Chris

 

Edited to remove a spurious "emoticon". Bah, humbug!!

Edited March 15, 2004 by Chris Timson

[Richard Morse]

What would Hugh Blake's Diatonion system be? It's bisonoric but any key and scale can be played entirely on the push or pull (not to mention with the same fingering pattern in any key/scale), is fully chromatic, has a bass and treble side, AND overlapping notes.

[Chris Timson]

What would Hugh Blake's Diatonion system be?

I'd just settle for "ingenious".

 

We know what duets are, and we know what anglos are. To try and insist on precision of nomenclature beyond this gives us nothing useful and risks getting us bogged down in unhelpful linguistic debate. Thank goodness the Beast of Uppsala can't follow this up, or we'd be here all night.

 

Chris

[JimLucas]

The way you reacted, one would think I'd said, "Your mother plays Lady of Spain!" 

Time for me to say "Que?" again, I think.

Sorry, Chris. While not really concertina related, I thought you would get the reference.

 

Let me just say that some people (mainly among US piano accordion folks) would construe that as a deliberate insult to your mother, and that in some cultures insulting one's mother is considered a capital offense. So my comment was intended as a tongue-in-cheek suggestion that your reaction seemed a bit extreme.