The Concertina and Dissonance

[catty]

I don't for a minute accept the implication that it's somehow superior to my own.

 

Why so defensive? Where in my post did I imply that anything is superior, inferior, above or below, or better or worse than anything else? What I did address, however, was my own preferences (not yours, of course) and a matter of socio-cultural contexts.

 

Hmm..

 

Guessing perhaps that you're taking offense by my citation of "normal Western aesthetic," I suggest that you avoid viewing this as a personal statement impugning your "tastes" and preferences...for how would I know anything of this? This statement applies as much to me as it does to you, inasmuch that we are both connected to contemporary Western society.

 

Is it possible for us to have a discussion of aesthetics, art and culture without someone immediately feeling denigrated?

Edited December 16, 2008 by catty

[JimLucas]

I don't for a minute accept the implication that it's somehow superior to my own.

Why so defensive? Where in my post did I imply that anything is superior, inferior, above or below, or better or worse than anything else? What I did address, however, was my own preferences (not yours, of course) and a matter of contexts.

The phrase that I reacted to was "...sublime--undoubtedly beyond the range of the normal Western aesthetic to 'enjoy.' " I.e., first a word implying extremely high quality, then "beyond", suggesting to me a claim that those who don't appreciate such music simply haven't progressed far enough. Oh yeah, and I consider the word "undoubtedly" to be one of the great frauds of the English language, since there always seems to be someone -- often myself -- who does doubt.

 

Well, misunderstandings occur often. E.g., I don't consider what I said to be "defensive" in the least.

[catty]

Hopefully, avoiding use of the word "undoubtedly" will encourage you to view this less personally.

 

To say that mainstream Western culture derives more satisfaction from, say, Britney Spears and less so from ancient fine arts is...axiomatic.

 

For the record, my use of the term "sublime" implies much more than "high quality"--at least invoking aspects obscure and esoteric to any distant culture, much less one so preoccupied by the superficial as our own..

 

At the risk of sounding contentious, I assert that much of ancient music is, indeed, sublime--at least in respect that it could aspire to a "deeper" meaning than typical Western "pop" music. If we needn't debate this, then what is it about the statement: (something) sublime--undoubtedly beyond the range of the normal Western aesthetic to "enjoy"... is provocative...if, to "enjoy" by average Western means can be operationalized by its typical overt practices of commerce and recreation by which we "experience" music?

Edited December 16, 2008 by catty

[JimLucas]

To say that mainstream Western culture derives more satisfaction from, say, Britney Spears and less so from ancient fine arts is...axiomatic.

I still disagree. I would dispute the label "culture".

As for "axiomatic"... axioms as assumptions. Mathematics demonstrates that by choosing different sets of axioms, one can reach radically different conclusions. It appears that your own assumptions differ from mine, and I will maintain that they are merely assumptions (or opinions), and neither "truths" nor "facts".

 

For the record, my use of the term "sublime" implies much more than "high quality"--at least invoking aspects obscure and esoteric to any distant culture, much less one so preoccupied by the superficial as our own..

 

At the risk of sounding contentious, I assert that much of ancient music is, indeed, sublime--at least in respect that it could aspire to a "deeper" meaning than typical Western "pop" music. If we needn't debate this, then what is it about the statement: (something) sublime--undoubtedly beyond the range of the normal Western aesthetic to "enjoy"... is provocative...if, to "enjoy" by average Western means can be operationalized by its typical overt practices of commerce and recreation by which we "experience" music?

Well, here is what some dictionaries say about "sublime". Meanwhile, it sounds to me as if your opinion of Eastern music isn't based only on its content, but at least in part on rejection of certain contemporary Western values. But there's far more to Western values -- and music -- than Britney Spears. Your argument has omitted European classical music, folk traditions, Medieval and Renaissance music, and much more. What is your opinion of these?

[Anglo-Irishman]

To say that mainstream Western culture derives more satisfaction from, say, Britney Spears and less so from ancient fine arts is...axiomatic.

 

Oops! I seem to have missed that axiom.

 

For the record, my use of the term "sublime" implies much more than "high quality"--at least invoking aspects obscure and esoteric to any distant culture, much less one so preoccupied by the superficial as our own..

 

Catty, would you please speak for yourself, and in the first person singular

 

My paradigm of "western" culture includes Monteverdi, Bach and Wagner, which are anything but superficial - although their art was such that their music can appeal at both the sublime and the superficial level. Western musical culture also embraces Schönberg and Webern - I find that they have less immediate appeal to the senses, but, irrespective of whether I like them, superficial they definitely are not! (How about "obscure and esoteric"?)

 

And it is simply not true that "Asiatic music" as such is not approachable from a "western" point of view. In an earlier posting I mentioned the shamisen, which has close relatives in China and Mongolia, which when played well make fascinating listening for a banjoist like me. But then, some "western" people don't like banjo music either. I thoroughly disliked that clip with the flute, shawm and sho - but then, I dislike the screeching clarinets in "western" wind bands, too. Some other Europeans even detest bagpipes.

 

Any argumentation that sets either "Asiatic" or "western" music up as monoliths is bound to cause protest. The one is as diverse as the other.

Ah, but of course, as you say, your culture is one of superficiality!

 

Cheers,

John

[LangoLee]

Any argumentation that sets either "Asiatic" or "western" music up as monoliths is bound to cause protest.

 

Yes, I agree with this statement, and did not start this thread with any comparative value judgements in mind (we should always be wary of projecting quasi-mystical ideals onto other cultures). What I find to be of historical interest, though, is how tunings and harmonies considered dissonant in the Western classical tradition (for much of its history) were central to many Eastern traditions. Of course, it is quite probable that the average Japanese citizen of today has no more taste for gagaku than the average European has for the atonal works of Schoenberg, which, despite being a hundred years old now, are still regarded as intolerably 'modern' by a large percentage of concert audiences. (Curiously enough, though, eccentric tunings have now crept right into the mainstream of American pop music, with the use of electronic 'auto-tune' voice processing by such artists as Kanye West and the aforementioned Ms. Spears.)

 

Whatever one thinks of oriental free reed music, it is worth noting that the concertina (along with the accordion and harmonium) probably owes its existence, indirectly, to the introduction of the Chinese sheng to Europe as a curiosity in the late 18th-century. So I am interested, then, in experimenting with how far the concertina can engage with the sound-world of its Asian ancestors, as well as the more experimental strain of drone-based improvisation that has long found champions in the accordion (e.g.

). This is all hypothetical, as I can still barely play the instrument at this stage. Edited December 16, 2008 by LangoLee

[Rod]

Any argumentation that sets either "Asiatic" or "western" music up as monoliths is bound to cause protest.

 

Yes, I agree with this statement, and did not start this thread with any comparative value judgements in mind (we should always be wary of projecting quasi-mystical ideals onto other cultures). What I find to be of historical interest, though, is how tunings and harmonies considered dissonant in the Western classical tradition (for much of its history) were central to many Eastern traditions. Of course, it is quite probable that the average Japanese citizen of today has no more taste for gagaku than the average European has for the atonal works of Schoenberg, which, despite being a hundred years old now, are still regarded as intolerably 'modern' by a large percentage of concert audiences. (Curiously enough, though, eccentric tunings have now crept right into the mainstream of American pop music, with the use of electronic 'auto-tune' voice processing by such artists as Kanye West and the aforementioned Ms. Spears.)

 

Whatever one thinks of oriental free reed music, it is worth noting that the concertina (along with the accordion and harmonium) probably owes its existence, indirectly, to the introduction of the Chinese sheng to Europe as a curiosity in the late 18th-century. So I am interested, then, in experimenting with how far the concertina can engage with the sound-world of its Asian ancestors, as well as the more experimental strain of drone-based composition/performance that has long found champions in the accordion (e.g. Pauline Oliveros). This is all hypothetical, as I can still barely play the instrument at this stage.

 

Dissonance. Sorry to butt in, but as someone for whom music has to be either jolly or romantic, (sometimes a combination of the two), I find 'Dissonance' to be an ugly word. I guess the adjective 'Philistine' will spring to mind ? !!

[JimLucas]

To mangle an old saying:

One man's "dissonance" is another man's "music".

[JimLucas]

Whatever one thinks of oriental free reed music, it is worth noting that the concertina (along with the accordion and harmonium) probably owes its existence, indirectly, to the introduction of the Chinese sheng to Europe as a curiosity in the late 18th-century. So I am interested, then, in experimenting with how far the concertina can engage with the sound-world of its Asian ancestors,....

Which is why I asked about "temperament". I know very little about Oriental music -- whether Mid-Eastern or Far-Eastern -- but I do know that at least some of it employs "scales" other than our Western 7-tone diatonic or 12-tone chromatic. Even for music that did employ a 7- or 12-tone scale, our modern equal tempered scale would likely be meaningless. I have to doubt that the notes of the "chords" diagrammed in the earlier post are accurately represented in Western standard music notation.

 

For that matter, is the scale of the Japanese sho the same as that of the Chinese sheng, or other counterparts in Southeast Asia?

[catty]

Ah...much better arguments. Thank you gentlemen. I find your recent comments far more edifying than relegating the "youtube" subject aforementioned to the realm of "science-fiction banjo-playing"..

Edited December 16, 2008 by catty

[JimLucas]

Ah...much better arguments. Thank you gentlemen. I find your recent comments far more edifying than relegating the "youtube" subject aforementioned to the realm of "science-fiction banjo-playing"..

Now don't be catty, catty.

I

never mentioned the

banjo

.

[catty]

Western musical culture also embraces Schönberg and Webern

 

Oh come now...let's not get carried away by equating these with the "average" Western palette.. The Viennese school is to the Western "pop" music (the music consumed by the masses, as I articulated) consumer as Asian sheng is to the European concertina-ist (apparently).

Edited December 16, 2008 by catty

[LDT]

Hopefully, avoiding use of the word "undoubtedly" will encourage you to view this less personally.

 

To say that mainstream Western culture derives more satisfaction from, say, Britney Spears and less so from ancient fine arts is...axiomatic.

I have no idea what that sentence means..but I have Britney Spears first album. and I got Spice girls and Steps albums too.

[catty]

Now don't be catty, catty.

 

And resist my raison d'etre for internet play?

Edited December 16, 2008 by catty

[LangoLee]

Which is why I asked about "temperament". I know very little about Oriental music -- whether Mid-Eastern or Far-Eastern -- but I do know that at least some of it employs "scales" other than our Western 7-tone diatonic or 12-tone chromatic. Even for music that did employ a 7- or 12-tone scale, our modern equal tempered scale would likely be meaningless. I have to doubt that the notes of the "chords" diagrammed in the earlier post are accurately represented in Western standard music notation.

 

For that matter, is the scale of the Japanese sho the same as that of the Chinese sheng, or other counterparts in Southeast Asia?

 

Actually, as far as I know, Chinese traditional music - unlike, say, Indian - uses a simple pentatonic scale (directly comparable to the Western one), albeit with a lot of note sliding, and can thus be related quite easily to Western folk music. Despite the number of pipes on a sheng, it seems that basic intervals such as fourths and fifths were preferred. I found this passage in an online article on the subject:

 

"The ascending scale is in the middle, surrounded by other pitches which reinforce the modal context... It is possible that in early Chinese ritual music, the Sheng may have sustained all appropriate notes of a given phrase in a kind of harmonic cloud amidst which other instruments played the melody. This can still be heard in the Japanese ritual music tradition of Gagaku (originally based on Tang Dynasty Chinese court music) where the instrument is called Sho."

 

So it seems that the particular technique of clustering chords died out in the Chinese tradition and was preserved only in a classical subset of the Japanese one. Ergo, sheng and sho music are potentially quite different, although the instruments' structure is similar. I don't see why you would doubt the accuracy of the chord diagrams on the previous page; trying them on a concertina gives results comparable to the sound in the Japanese video, and changing the temperament of the scale would not make them sound substantially more 'consonant'.

[Anglo-Irishman]

I don't see why you would doubt the accuracy of the chord diagrams on the previous page; trying them on a concertina gives results comparable to the sound in the Japanese video, and changing the temperament of the scale would not make them sound substantially more 'consonant'.

 

Langolee,

I think the point here is that staff notation is not "accurate", even within the terms of European music. True, the ledger line below the treble stave always designates middle C. But the actual pitch of the note that sounds when somebody plays it varies with the conventional concert pitch to which the instrument is tuned. And concert pitch, as we all know, varies from time to time and from place to place.

 

Further, we have the question of temperament. With concertinists, this is not much of an issue, but with autoharpists, for instance, it is. The equal temperament of pianos and English concertinas - chromatic instruments - is only necessary when we utilise the Circle of Fifths, and need a note that can serve as both D# and Eb. Chromatic autoharps are usually tuned to equal temperament, but diatonic 'harps - those with only 7 strings/notes per octave, and thus capable of playing in only one key - are often kept in Just intonation. Or, if there is one accidental (allowing two adjacent keys, e.g. C/G), some meantone intonation is used. These diatonic tunings are collectively termed "sweet tunings" by the autoharp fraternity. Because, in the one or two keys that are playable, the chords do sound more consonant than in equal temperament. Some diatonic autoharpers even find equal temperament unpleasantly "edgy".

 

The same staff notation is used to indicate the A, B, C ... of an equal-tempered and a Just-intonation 'harp - but the effect of the chords is noticeably different. It is so different that diatonic autoharpers are well advised to retune to equal temperament when playing with other instruments, otherwise they sound "wrong".

In fact, a note on the ledger line below the treble stave means no more than "Play your middle C, whatever pitch it is."

 

So if staff notation is incapable of reflecting the differences of intonation within its own tradition, how reliable can it be in designating notes in scales from a completely different tradition?

 

Cheers,

John

[Jody Kruskal]

This discussion of dissonance and temperament prompts me to bring up an issue that has been discussed before in these pages. Namely, that many harmonic style concertina players of all stripes avoid the out of tune interval of the third.

 

I guess I’m one of those when the third in question is just above the root of a chord. At that low range the beating of the third interval is far from sweet and creates a dissonance that I find ugly and muddy. I do use it if there is no better option but if I do play a low third I don’t linger there but rather I have one or both of the offending notes be quite short so that it fills it’s rhythmic function without calling attention to the dissonance.

 

There have also been recent posts about how to play with chords. I would suggest that would be chord players avoid spelling their chords 1 3 5, as in C E G. If you want the third in there at all (simple 5ths work better most go the time, I think) then try spelling the chord 1 5 3 with the third up an octave and on top of the chord making it more of a 6th against the 5. I do play close thirds in the upper range. Even though they can grate, they do cut through when that is what’s needed.

 

Not all dissonance is objectionable to me, even when the overall affect of the music is consonant, including jolly and romantic music and most of what I play. Rather, dissonance can add spice and interest. Like spice, a little goes a long way but none at all can be bland. I use it all the time in my playing. I also use pepper and salt in my cooking, but not as the main course.

 

That youtube sho example sounds a bit like a string orchestra piece I heard once by the Estonian composer Arvo Pärt. Sorry, I can’t remember the name of the piece, but there were long clusters of pitches that shifted slowly over time. Very beautiful and yes... sublime, full of dissonance and quite emotional in an intense, personal and spiritual way.

 

I would like to hear that again. Anyone know the piece I'm thinking of... perhaps it was all violins and violas?

[catty]

One of his most popular works--and one of my favorites, is his "Fratres." It is a wonderful piece--lots of space.

Edited December 18, 2008 by catty