Funny Little 'Cut' Symbols

[michael sam wild]

I've been going through O' Neill's book as part of a research exercise and all the little 'cut' symbols (quaver or 8th note with a slash across, I'm no theorist) seem to be before the main beat note of the bar. can anybody elucidate on the embellishment that this indicates. I often put the twiddle after the main note and elaborate so I suppose it's a 'roll' As I 'play' a number of instruments I find that embellishments take different forms on whistle, flute, fiddle, accordion and now concertinas.

 

Is there a good source of workable infomation?

 

Can anyone list cuts, rolls, crans etc that are useful for concerinists?

Edited December 10, 2008 by michael sam wild

[Pete Dunk]

Presumably the 'cut' quaver is also in smaller print? If so its an 'acciaccatura' (also called crushed) grace note. This note is sounded very briefly indeed without stealing time from the main note and doesn't indicate any other embellishment.

 

Of cuts, rolls, crans etc I know nothing I'm afraid but it is on the list for learning, sometime.

 

Pete.

[Pete Dunk]

Mmm. Just realised you said a cut semiquaver so perhaps this is something I've never seen or is of special significance to a specific instrument (fiddle perhaps?). Anyway I'm no great theorist either but you might find this series of posts interesting.

[Pete Dunk]

You've set me off now - but still no sign of a cut semiquaver anywhere. This is a useful reference.

[Hereward]

Thanks you Pete. This is very useful to me and others I am sure.

 

Ian

Edited December 10, 2008 by Hereward

[tombilly]

A cut in ITM is a cut whether played on whistle, fiddle or concertina. It's a higher grace note that is played on the beat - to emphasise or lift the main beat note. Also used to separate two notes of same pitch. So e.g. on Anglo on RHS, you might cut a B with the neighbouring d. Timing is everything in cuts - you shouldn't really 'hear' the d before the B - just the awareness that the B was lifted or emphasised a little by the flick of the d.

[michael sam wild]

Sorry I meant quaver, as I said I'm no theorist I'll stick to'8th note' in future and will edit my entry

Mike

[Pete Dunk]

Not to worry Mike, it led to an interesting bit of research.

[michael sam wild]

Not to worry Mike, it led to an interesting bit of research.

 

I've found it interesting and frustrating but it forces you to think.

 

It was intersting that Breandan Breathnach in his first voume of Irish Music said he'd deferred to trad musicians by just indicating ornamentation without details. But by the second vol he said as the purpose was educational he detailed all the little notes. This has always put me off as a non-reader of dots and forced me to listen to other players and to experiment on my particular instruments and as a singer

 

Coming to the Anglo late has forced me to find out what people do within it's limitations and I've found the terminolgy isn't really consistent. I'll go back through this forum to see whether it's all old hat on concertina.net

 

Frank Edgley has quite detailed tutorials in his book and CD which I have found valuable but I've learned most by having played fiddle, whistle and flute - and listening to pipers.

 

I've not got a facility on computer to slow ornaments down and I'm not sure I want one. Have others found it helpful, I know teachers do go through cuts and rolls quite laboriously for beginners.

 

Mike

[JimLucas]

Coming to the Anglo late has forced me to find out what people do within it's limitations and I've found the terminolgy isn't really consistent. I'll go back through this forum to see whether it's all old hat on concertina.net

That the terminology isn't consistent?

Oh, a very -- and repeatedly -- battered old hat.

[michael sam wild]

Coming to the Anglo late has forced me to find out what people do within it's limitations and I've found the terminolgy isn't really consistent. I'll go back through this forum to see whether it's all old hat on concertina.net

That the terminology isn't consistent?

Oh, a very -- and repeatedly -- battered old hat.

 

 

Yeah, just had a trawl back to 2003 , it is a veritable treasure trove so I've got lots to go at!

[michael sam wild]

I've been experimenting with a sort of tablature based on 3 lines ( for the rows on the Anglo) rather than a 5 line stave that helps me with the embellishments or ornaments. I find ABc very useful and always amend the dots on the stave to get an ABc score. Even with tunes I know by ear or from osmosis I jot them in my little tune books

 

I find now that if I use my usual colour code with two highlight markers (I use yellow for push and red for pull). Now that I know where the buttons and bellows directions are for the available notes on the buttons on the three rows of the Anglo, on both sides, I can use superscripts or subscripts betwen the melody notes. I work out the 'bare bones of the tune , e.g. 8/8th notes per bar (measure) for a reel and then amend the melody notes as I work out ornaments

 

I often start this by whistling, diddling (lilting), singing or playing on various instruments and then note them down. I do the exploration while out walking or working on the allotment ( I've always had tunes going through my head)

 

I only do this coding when I'm really keen to analyse a tune and break it down. Mainly I just add them as I feel, but it has helped in crossing rows and sides and getting a smoother flow.

 

I notice that Padraig O'Keefe the great Sliabh Luachra fiddler used a tab system based on 4 lines, showing strings rather than a stave, for his pupils and I know French players use a tab for Accordeon.

 

 

I find colour coding means that I go looking for the 'right' button rather than simply using my default position (which is 'Old Style' - along the rows and push/pull ( I played mouthorgan for years and one row melodeon).

 

Having said that, if I'm playing along in a session or to a CD I often use the 'Old Style' to get the tune fixed. I use a hybrid style in any case, having studied source players and the various tutors from the off, and taken what I need from the various authors. I think John Kirkpatrick said Anglo was a three system box ( correct me if I'm wrong)

 

Mike

 

Mike

[tombilly]

Maybe you are over analysing it. Ornamentation is Irish trad at any rate is like accent is to language. Sure, you can break it down into technique but it's meaningless outside the context of a tune. If you absorb the idiom like you'd absorb a local accent, then it'll start coming out naturally.

[michael sam wild]

It's not the idiom that I find difficult, I've played Irish music for years on various instruments, but how to play it on the right buttons and bellows direction. The Anglo was invented for push'pull playing and we have adapted it to play across the rows and as I've come late to it. I have to work harder to master the technique. I'll have to go to a Noel Hill school!

Mike

[michael sam wild]

The thread started by David Levine seems to substantiate the need for a system on what is a tricky instruent when adapted for what I have started calling 'New Style' Irish playing