English V Anglo

[AlanEgan]

Same as saying the bow and strings do the work for you.

 

Actually, not. Shall I spell it out? The concertina is a machine: the finger activates the button; the button selects the reed, and only that particular reed in only that particualr fashion; the reed is activated by friction (air from the bellows), again, in only that particular way--across the reed--with fluctuations in amount and attack/decay. The only "work" is to select the button with the finger, and move the bellows (albeit, simplified). Fiddle: the finger acts directly upon the string in an infinite choice of scale lengths to render pitch; the string is activated by friction (bow is drawn across the strings). In this scenario, the bow is again worked directly by the muscles, as is the bellows, but may be activated in more variety of ways than the machine is capable. Again, simplified.

 

All of the above is true, you don’t seem to understand that the subtleties that can be created with a bow can also be done with correct use of bellows, and many varieties of tone and effect can be altered.

 

As for finger positioning on the strings, your fingers know where to land from years of playing just as our fingers know which buttons to press to get a particular note, this is the basics of learning. Eventually for both instruments we don’t have to think anymore when we want a note, our fingers automatically go there. On concertina we have different options on which button we choose to get that note. Each instrument has its own techniques to master and each is very different but all are to produce the same end result. Ye bow we bellow. Don’t forget the fiddle is also a machine.

[catty]

Skins- you're missing my point.

 

Of course there are subtleties in 'tina playing and artistic work of the bellows. But re-read what I said about the COMPARISONS.

 

I think perhaps the problem here may reside in that I suspect you don't play the fiddle.

 

But anyway, don't worry, I still love the concertina ... so much so that I play both AC and EC -- have tried to opt for one over the other, but they're both great.

Edited October 2, 2008 by catty

[Anglo-Irishman]

I happen to know a few musicians that play both concertina and fiddle. If you were to ask any of them they would tell you that the concertina is actually harder to master and get flow in the music.

 

Another point, if you were to attend any Fleadh and go to both concertina and fiddle competitions, you would find that the standard of music is higher in the fiddle. If the concertina was an easier instrument, wouldn't you think the reverse to be true?

 

Skinsegan,

Your first statement may be true within the ITM scene, but certainly not universally true. For the kind of music I play, the Anglo is a lot easier than the fiddle. I tried both as a young person, and settled for the Anglo, with its ready-made intonation and chording capabilities.

 

Your second observation is hardly surprising, seeing as you associate it with ITM. The musical background of ITM, the traditional Irish jigs, reels, hornpipes etc., is fiddle music. The tunes themselves, and the customary decorations - not to mention the keys - are very "violinistic".

Although I haven't played the fiddle for literally years (but kept my fingering fresh on the mandolin), I could work up a hornpipe in D on the fiddle more easily than on my C/G Anglo. And with some practice, I'd probably eventually play it better on the fiddle. For hornpipes in D, the fiddle is simply more intuitive. (Unless we're takling D dorian - then the C/G Anglo is about as easy, but not easier, and probably has less potential for excellence - in my hands, at least.)

 

On the other hand, for song accompaniments with instrumental verses thrown in, there's nothing quite as simple and yet effective as the Anglo. The fiddle is a non-starter there.

 

It might help with the discussion if we kept it instrument-oriented. Remember that violins, concertinas, flutes and accordions DO have an existence outside ITM!

In fact, if you're looking for the roots of the diatonic button arrangement, they're in German popular music. The button layout is the German contribution to the Anglo-German concertina.

 

Cheers,

John

[AlanEgan]

I think you've lost my point.

 

But anyway, don't worry, I still love the concertina

 

 

Really didn't, you may love the concertina but obviously underestimate it. It is as versatile as any other instrument.

 

 

To quote a friend of mine who has mastered both instruments, Only person I know who actually has,

 

"i'd say the fiddle prob takes longer to get reeeeeeally good

 

but i think to be reeeeeally good on concertina you need to be more musical

 

theres just soooo much more scope on there"

 

his exact words.

 

 

Yes John I am only speaking about ITM as it's what i know best. I don't like to talk on stuff I don't know enough about.

 

the traditional Irish jigs, reels, hornpipes etc., is fiddle music. The tunes themselves, and the customary decorations - not to mention the keys - are very "violinistic".

 

I would agree that alot of ITM was written by fiddle players but it easily can be played on any instrument. It really should not be a problem

[catty]

Skins- you're missing my point.

I think perhaps the problem here may reside in that I suspect you don't play the fiddle.

 

Skins- there is no substitute for experience.

[AlanEgan]

Skins- you're missing my point.

I think perhaps the problem here may reside in that I suspect you don't play the fiddle.

 

Skins- there is no substitute for experience.

 

That is why I got onto my mate to ask him. He is expert on both. Read the quote. And what exactly is your experience on concertina and fiddle? I can play the fiddle and lots of other instruments, but I only consider myself to be a concertina player.

Edited October 2, 2008 by skinsegan

[catty]

That is why I got onto my mate to ask him. He is expert on both. Read the quote. And what exactly is your experience on concertina and fiddle? I can play the fiddle and lots of other instruments, but I only consider myself to be a concertina player.

 

Skins- you appear very defensive. My experience is that I am a player of both.

[AlanEgan]

That is why I got onto my mate to ask him. He is expert on both. Read the quote. And what exactly is your experience on concertina and fiddle? I can play the fiddle and lots of other instruments, but I only consider myself to be a concertina player.

 

Skins- you appear very defensive. My experience is that I am a player of both.

 

Not at all, I just don't like to see rash comments made on something I feel strongly about. Nothing wrong with that.

 

You are entitled to your opinion as I am. It just seems to me that you really need to be more adventerous with your concertina and see what she can really do. Endless possibilities. And just like pinball, it can be exciting and fun, not sure if I could say the same about golf.

[catty]

I thought I was through with this debate (and, in fact, I am with skins-)

 

But, I thought of one more way to illustrate the dynamic range of the fiddle: it is far more difficult to make a concertina sound like a fiddle, than vice-versa.

 

Good day all

[AlanEgan]

I thought I was through with this debate (and, in fact, I am with skins-)

 

But, I thought of one more way to illustrate the dynamic range of the fiddle: it is far more difficult to make a concertina sound like a fiddle, than vice-versa.

 

Good day all

 

so you can double octave, throw in chords at will etc.... the list goes on.

 

If one wanted to make their fiddle sound like a concertina just pick up a concertina and vice-versa.

 

You really don't get the point.

 

Seperate instruments, different techniques, etc etc etc.... been through this already.

Edited October 3, 2008 by skinsegan

[catty]

I thought I was through with this debate (and, in fact, I am with skins-)

 

But, I thought of one more way to illustrate the dynamic range of the fiddle: it is far more difficult to make a concertina sound like a fiddle, than vice-versa.

 

Good day all

 

so you can double octave, throw in chords at will etc.... the list goes on.

 

If one wanted to make there fiddle sound like a concertina just pick up a concertina and vice-versa.

 

You really don't get the point.

 

Seperate instruments, different techniques, etc etc etc.... been through this already.

 

Skins-, skins-, skins- Chording is very rare in fiddling, (while drones and modal playing is the rule). The point, mine anyway, is that the range of expressiveness is far greater on fiddle. And combined with the variables of execution, much, much more complex than playing concertina (and, therefore, not as "easy"). But I'm talking to a person who would not know, as you are not a player.

 

Okay, NOW I'm done ..

[AlanEgan]

I thought I was through with this debate (and, in fact, I am with skins-)

 

But, I thought of one more way to illustrate the dynamic range of the fiddle: it is far more difficult to make a concertina sound like a fiddle, than vice-versa.

 

Good day all

 

so you can double octave, throw in chords at will etc.... the list goes on.

 

If one wanted to make there fiddle sound like a concertina just pick up a concertina and vice-versa.

 

You really don't get the point.

 

Seperate instruments, different techniques, etc etc etc.... been through this already.

 

Skins-, skins-, skins- Chording is very rare in fiddling, (while drones and modal playing is the rule). The point, mine anyway, is that the range of expressiveness is far greater on fiddle. And combined with the variables of execution, much, much more complex than playing concertina (and, therefore, not as "easy"). But I'm talking to a person who would not know, as you are not a player.

 

Okay, NOW I'm done ..

 

I know what your point is, that is what we have been discussing. As i have quoted one of the best concertina/fiddle players in ITM and you still disagree, I really am wasting my time catty.

 

I am not saying one is easier or more complex than the other. Why can't you accept that both are complex and the complexity or expressiveness depends on the musician not the instrument?

Edited October 2, 2008 by skinsegan

[m3838]

That is the first post that I've read written by you that I take absolutely no excetion with. Charming music--thank you.

 

I agree.

 

All I heard there was 2 chords and notes. To me this is the same as playing ITM from notation with out any extras. I would give it ago myself having never attempted anything other than trad but I dont have that range on an Anglo. I thought the point was to show technicality? All that was there was notes. I am not knocking your playing, It is very well played but there is nothing technical about it is what I am saying. Do you have something that I would have the range to play on an anglo so I can give it a go?

You are missing my points, my friend. It was you, who stated that ITM music technically is equal to "serious", but it's hard to talk to zealots, they read between the lines, and only what they are able to assume.

You can knock my playing, it's just an illustration of what I'm working on. From this illustration I have proven the fact, that to play classical music one has to be just as ingenious, original, talented and what not, as any top ITM player out there. So there is no difference between them, an nobody plays from the "dots". In such capacity they can be compared, as their approach is the same.

And your Anglo has larger range, than my Tenor. I only have 2,5 octaves at my disposal, and you have the whole octave more.

Plus push/pull will add erzats intonation, that will sound better in the beginning, than anything attempted on EC. Give it a try, you'll have more appreciation of rowbustness, whit and humor of those classical players.

[m3838]

I don’t know if Mischa gets it

.

Misha gets it.

 

But to tell you the truth, he isn’t putting it down. He’s putting it in perspective, though with neither tact nor delicacy.

As they say in Russian joke, "delicate were sent to delicates, and you have a package". I still can't really comprehend why one should excersize delicacy, while been dealt firmly by some delicate ITM fighters.

 

I’ll play on regardless of what he thinks.

:unsure:

[AlanEgan]

That is the first post that I've read written by you that I take absolutely no excetion with. Charming music--thank you.

 

I agree.

 

All I heard there was 2 chords and notes. To me this is the same as playing ITM from notation with out any extras. I would give it ago myself having never attempted anything other than trad but I dont have that range on an Anglo. I thought the point was to show technicality? All that was there was notes. I am not knocking your playing, It is very well played but there is nothing technical about it is what I am saying. Do you have something that I would have the range to play on an anglo so I can give it a go?

You are missing my points, my friend. It was you, who stated that ITM music technically is equal to "serious", but it's hard to talk to zealots, they read between the lines, and only what they are able to assume.

You can knock my playing, it's just an illustration of what I'm working on. From this illustration I have proven the fact, that to play classical music one has to be just as ingenious, original, talented and what not, as any top ITM player out there. So there is no difference between them, an nobody plays from the "dots". In such capacity they can be compared, as their approach is the same.

And your Anglo has larger range, than my Tenor. I only have 2,5 octaves at my disposal, and you have the whole octave more.

Plus push/pull will add erzats intonation, that will sound better in the beginning, than anything attempted on EC. Give it a try, you'll have more appreciation of rowbustness, whit and humor of those classical players.

 

Firstly I did not knock your playing, just stating what I can hear from your upload. Secondly the point you were supposed to prove was the fact that classical is more complex and technical than ITM. Our discussion was not about talent.

And finally I dont have the low octave at my disposal to attempt the piece.

[catty]

I am not saying one is easier or more complex than the other. Why can't you accept that both are complex and the complexity or expressiveness depends on the musician not the instrument?

 

Skins- you are making my brain hurt -- why have you debated this for an entire page, then? Your second sentence, above, is as obvious as a bear that defecates in the woods.

[AlanEgan]

I am not saying one is easier or more complex than the other. Why can't you accept that both are complex and the complexity or expressiveness depends on the musician not the instrument?

 

Skins- you are making my brain hurt -- why have you debated this for an entire page, then? Your second sentence, above, is as obvious as a bear that defecates in the woods.

 

 

why have I debated it??

 

did you forget that you said

 

the concertina is roughly 10 times easier than fiddle

 

and then you agree with my second sentence???

 

No wonder your brain hurts.

[catty]

You just said that you are NOT debating it.

 

Another point, if you were to attend any Fleadh and go to both concertina and fiddle competitions, you would find that the standard of music is higher in the fiddle. If the concertina was an easier instrument, wouldn't you think the reverse to be true?

 

I am not saying one is easier or more complex than the other

 

This is clearly a contradiction.

Edited October 3, 2008 by catty