m3838 Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 Example please. I want to hear and see that "anything". Really do. What I'm talking about is not whether "me" or "you" are exposed to some "great" - it's all matter of taste. May be you should read my comments before replying? I occasionally read what you write . . . sometimes I think it would be more effective if accompanied by a musical soundtrack. It will follow. I haven't even touched the instrument in a month. The dust is not settled yet and my financial cushion is getting thinner. Bach's Menuets are in works, but the more I play them, the more is needed to be done. Unlike some simple folk tunes, Bach doesn't sound any good if played from the dots. It needs the feel, the exposure, the immersion in the culture. Wait, wasn't somebody saying it about ITM before? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m3838 Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 Need I say more, and believe me this is just the tip of the iceberg. Recordings only portray half of a live performance. Absolutely breathless! Now we need him render Gershwin and Grieg with the same rigor. Just to prove the idea of "anything", if anybody cares to stand behind the talking. And by the way m3838 "need I say more" was a rhetorical question. I'm done with this discussion. Good decision for someone, who is quick to throw a bombshell. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOw3tszDJ6A The concertina sounds like one tenth of the fiddle above. Real problem. Very strange instrument, this concertina. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m3838 Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 But complexity does not imply quality. No, complexity only grants complexity. The quality factor is the same with all kinds of activity. It's the only idea I'm trying to convey to the unconverted. Futile, they read into non-existent. I guess it IS a religious matter then. A short, simple poem that distills a thought perfectly can be much more difficult to write than a complex, long one. Precisely the point about Barocco architecture. Spot on. Immensely more difficult. And someone who can consistently write very effective, simple poems is a virtuoso poet, no matter that they don't write epics. To turn this around a little (just for fun sake), Bach's short Menuets are more effective, than those long repetitive reels that just keep on going till musicians turn blue. (only for fun sake, don't take it for face value) If the composition of traditional pieces was too complex, it would dilute their purpose. It is music to get you dancing, or music to set a mood for a song with a melody you remember and can hum. Not really. First and formost it's the music to get the work done. Then everything else. Traditional piece doesn't even have a composition. It has the feel, the mood, the rhythm, but not composition. Composition is the entertainment of the upper classes, having abundance of time and nothing to fill it with. Has always been, even today. I'd suggest to read Leo Tolstoy about the matter, you'll like it. "What is Art" is the title. It's meant to appeal to a more basic, earthy, spontaneous part of us than lofty "art" music is meant to. Art music doesn't have to be "lofty", and what is "lofty"? On any level of performance, complexity, income, education you'll find "Lofty" and "Earthly" ones. So, how do you add interest to simple music without making the structure too complex? This is a skill that traditional musicians have been developing for hundreds, even thousands of years, but it's a question that hardly concerns classical musicians at all. Just where do you get these strange ideas? Classical music is bred by Folk. There is no division between them. Bach often was leaving pieces of stave blank, to be filled by performers, who got the idea. At their discretion. Traditional musicians bend notes, add rapid-fire "twiddles" (much faster than classical "grace notes") at will, they'll dig into certain notes with a gritty drive, they'll stomp their feet, thay'll add or leave out notes, they'll "spank" their instruments, they'll add spontaneous variations, they'll play ahead or behind of the beat while others stay on it, they'll play in a "ragged unison," in which everyone is listening to and spontaneously responding to the other musicians' input, and the audience. They'll play instruments with gritty or nasal tones that would be considered unsuitable for classical use. They'll let their fingers fly with abandon instead of using precise, efficient movements. They'll sway and bob, or even dance, while playing. All of these things, and many more, belong to an ethos that is not part of classical music. The musicia.......... Have you ever listened to a "classical" performance? I can't believe that. All that you mentioned is just as common a practice for any "art", "lofty", "serious" music as for any other. The only difference between Folk and Serious is that Folk is the father, Serious is the offspring, Folk is designed to participate in, Serious to be performed. Folk that is performed, becomes serious, Classical that is participated in, becomes Folk. That's it. No amount of complexity or simplicity can be decisive, as it is subjective. Relativity Theory may be light Entertainment for some. The drastic division between classes, that used to set clear boundaries, is over. In a way, Lofty Arts have suffered heavy blow by Democratization of societies. The lowly Bourguasie sets the standards for last 200 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boney Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 Have you ever listened to a "classical" performance? I can't believe that. All that you mentioned is just as common a practice for any "art", "lofty", "serious" music as for any other. No it isn't. As I said, you can hear similar effects in classical music, but they're more measured, more contained, more premediated. Can you really not hear the difference between Jimi Hendrix and Segovia? If you can't, I can't help you. Both are amazing. But they use VERY different techniques and feel. I feel ridiculous even trying to explain. But ignore that if you want. What did you think of Johnny Doran? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanEgan Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOw3tszDJ6A The concertina sounds like one tenth of the fiddle above. Real problem. Very strange instrument, this concertina. That just about sums up what I think of your comments now. no point preaching to deaf ears. As Boney said If you don't hear it, perhaps you should consider the possibility that others can sense something you can't? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RatFace Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 That just about sums up what I think of your comments now. no point preaching to deaf ears. As Boney saidIf you don't hear it, perhaps you should consider the possibility that others can sense something you can't? The same is true the other way around - perhaps m3838 senses something you can't. I play a lot of traditional and classical music as a reasonably good amateur, and I listen to and enjoy both types of music. I don't feel there is anything in the traditional playing/music that can't be found in the best classical playing/music (including those things that make traditional music "special" such as energy and the feeling of personal connection to the musician). However, the converse isn't true. The classical world has a system of teaching and training that is far more extensive, sophisticated and effective than in the traditional world - perhaps the downside might be that this teaching and training might squash originality in some cases (but then many good trad players aren't very original either), but in a few - the best - this training can help them realise their own musicality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishtar Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 Wow! My first visit here for a long, long time, what a thread this has turned out to be! I bought my EC on a whim last June and brought it back to France with me. I then discovered that these people get together once a month for an Irish session in a town called Nimes, about 40km from me. http://lichatt.free.fr/temp/session/ I find it much more difficult than the sessions I went to in England, because it's all very, very fast, and after a while my brain gets overloaded and it all sounds the same. I feel that my EC is out of place, but that could just be because it's so rare here. You can see an Anglo (I think!) in the photo there, and I do wonder if, with the same amount of effort, it would be easier to fit into this group with an Anglo. OTOH, maybe it's ME that's out of place, because I'm not much good anyway, lol! But I like my EC, and as someone said above, it's such a personal thing. The thought of being restricted to two keys seems very frightening to me, I just don't get that at all. I can understand the EC, it's like a piano, all the notes are there. Okay, where's the blush smiley? I just have to work on getting as good as Simon Thoumire now. I like Irish a lot, but don't want to do it to the exclusion of everything else. There's SO much great Scottish and English stuff out there to be enjoyed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanEgan Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 The concertina sounds like one tenth of the fiddle above. Real problem. Very strange instrument, this concertina. So you agree with m3838 then Ratface? Is this not a concertina forum? If you agree with it then why are you even in a concertina forum??? It's not hard to see where yer points are coming from if ye think that the concertina is a "very strange instrument" and a "Real problem" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RatFace Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 The concertina sounds like one tenth of the fiddle above. Real problem. Very strange instrument, this concertina. So you agree with m3838 then Ratface? Is this not a concertina forum? If you agree with it then why are you even in a concertina forum??? I meant that I generally agree with m3838's general point, but not necessarily every single word This is a forum for discussing the concertina and how it's played. It's not supposed to be a "let's worship the concertina" forum. There are good and bad aspects to pretty much everything in life, and I think both aspects are fair game for these forums. Unfortunately, as soon as anything even slightly negative is mentioned here, people jump up and down shouting indignantly. So - I'm in this forum because I play the concertina, and I play the concertina because it's fun. Oh, and yes I'd prefer 10 times as much of that fiddle playing to any similar concertina playing I've ever heard... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanEgan Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 Oh, and yes I'd prefer 10 times as much of that fiddle playing to any similar concertina playing I've ever heard... Maybe it's time to change instrument then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Evans Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 (edited) Ouf! that's a bit low. Damp down yer fire. Danny to my memory hasn't stepped into one of our punch-ups on this damnedable subject before. I think he made a point. Why don't you give a listen to what he's recorded so you have an idea about who yer throwing Molotov cocktails at. You fished in and let Misha get you in an uproar. While at it, listen to some of his recordings. That crazy Russian can be prickly but he ain't no fool. I confess to having two things against Danny. He plays the cello...well and I can't hit a lick on it that don't sound like a wounded coyote and I'll never have the talent to play the concertina with his artistry and taste . Edited October 1, 2008 by Mark Evans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDT Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 (edited) *ding ding* round two. (sorry couldn't resist) Edited October 1, 2008 by LDT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catty Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 The concertina sounds like one tenth of the fiddle above. Real problem. Very strange instrument, this concertina. It's twice, now, that I find myself in agreement (kind of) with m3838. While comparing fiddles to concertinas is akin to that of apples and oranges, it would be difficult to find an instrument capable of as great expression as violin, of course. That's the nature of strings--there's always greater capacity for expression with a string than with a button. But I always have a problem with m3838's mathematics (I recall his equations for figuring the value of other people's instruments, but I digress); once one reduces m3838's exaggerated estimations by a factor of 10, his proclamations begin to become intelligible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanEgan Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 I really don't think my comment was in any way low. It was not a dig, and I have never commented on anyone’s music ability on here. If I thought for one second that fiddle music sounded 10 times better than concertina music then I certainly wouldn't be playing the concertina. As for Misha, he may have a great knowledge of music but he does not have the experience when it comes to ITM to justify some of his degrading comments. I would not dare speak on other genres in depth. In my opinion, the above recordings are both played with complete mastery. I included a fiddle and concertina to show the technicality of both players, they were not meant to be compared as you cannot compare two different instruments. Every instrument sounds different when played, some people will prefer concertina, others fiddle, others flute etc... What you like is your own personal taste, to say that there is a problem because you think one sounds 10 times better is your problem and yours alone. Why play one if you think another is leaps and bounds ahead?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterT Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 *ding ding* round two. Yes; very tempting! When the arguement raged on your topic, I said that it would move to another thread. So; here we are, with some different members being "wound up". The arguement will, in time, move onto another, as yet unknown, thread. Peter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Evans Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 I really don't think my comment was in any way low. It was not a dig, and I have never commented on anyone’s music ability on here. If I thought for one second that fiddle music sounded 10 times better than concertina music then I certainly wouldn't be playing the concertina. As for Misha, he may have a great knowledge of music but he does not have the experience when it comes to ITM to justify some of his degrading comments. I would not dare speak on other genres in depth. In my opinion, the above recordings are both played with complete mastery. I included a fiddle and concertina to show the technicality of both players, they were not meant to be compared as you cannot compare two different instruments. Every instrument sounds different when played, some people will prefer concertina, others fiddle, others flute etc... What you like is your own personal taste, to say that there is a problem because you think one sounds 10 times better is your problem and yours alone. Why play one if you think another is leaps and bounds ahead?? Ah, I see. The violin is an instrument without equal in my opinion as well. So versital and unique and taking on a different voice with each player who picks it up. It's a thing of wonder. I can't play one and only by chance did a concertina end up in me mitts. Learned to play it and enjoy the experience, but that changes not one whit my opinion about violins. I'm very happyto play with fiddlers and have a communion with their instrument and mine. It's good, very good. Misha, is Misha and will from time to time stir the pot. I don't see why he needs any experience with ITM to have an opinion on ITM. I've no experience with the saxophone, but I know that I love an' it ain't Kenny Gee . Could I be as full a' sheit as a Christmas goose? Sho' nuff. I agree with you that both esamples were wonderfully done. Misha doesn't and ain't gonna get it. So what? "Why play on if you think another is leaps and bounds ahead??" It's wise to know ones limitations. Me and the concertina fit very well together. It was not my choice, but it was the right fit and in the end stole my heart. I hope it (Tina) doesn't mind too much when I from time to time am asked to hold a treasured fiddle while the owner steps out of the circle and I momentarily entertain a fantasy. I am a singer as well. Had aspirations about being an operatic tenor and striding the globe like Pavarotti (God rest his soul). Didn't work out that way. But I had me a good run and made a few bob and met some nice people. We do what we do. I sang because it was and is in my soul to do so without regard to another's achievements. Took a decade or two to come 'round to that by the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanEgan Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 I completly agree with what you have said Mark. But just a few little things to add. The violin is an instrument without equal in my opinion as well. So versital and unique and taking on a different voice with each player who picks it up. It's a thing of wonder. In my opinion the concertina is an instrument without equal. Nothing is impossible with its versitility, even more so than fiddle, but again this is just my opinion. What you said above is common place with all instruments. Misha, is Misha and will from time to time stir the pot. I don't see why he needs any experience with ITM to have an opinion on ITM. Misha is welcome to his opinions, but to try and force them on other people without a full/rich understanding of ITM is what I have a problem with. It's wise to know ones limitations. I agree that it is wise to know ones limitations, but to try and raise our limitations is how we get to achieve what we want. If Misha has some classical solo concertina music I would really like to hear it to see how "serious" concertina music should sound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RatFace Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 Misha is welcome to his opinions, but to try and force them on other people without a full/rich understanding of ITM is what I have a problem with. How can any of us "force our opinions" on anyone here?! The only way to do anything like that would be for someone to try to ban or silence anyone who disagreed with their opinions. I certainly don't see Misha doing that. I think he'd be very disappointed if there wasn't anyone to be controversial with! The closest I've seen to people trying to force their opinions on others is telling them to take up another instrument, or implying they shouldn't post in these forums, or (in another thread) claiming they're doing the concertina a dis-service, all because they dared suggest that whilst the concertina can be fun and a great instrument to play, it perhaps isn't the most wonderful instrument ever to have been created. Not that it bothers me in the slightest - I'm out to a session tonight where I'll play my cello and concertina very happily indeed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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