English V Anglo

[hjcjones]

A world class musician may not be always exciting to listen to, but can play anything at any given time in any given key or level of complexity (within reason).

A traditional musician is only capable of such things within the tunnel of music he is accustomed with.

Then why is it that James Galway sounds ridiculous when he tries to play traditional irish tunes?

Or Yehudi Menuhin playing jazz violin - alongside Stephan Grapelli he sounded like an amateur, which in that genre he was.

[chiton1]

A world class musician may not be always exciting to listen to, but can play anything at any given time in any given key or level of complexity (within reason).

A traditional musician is only capable of such things within the tunnel of music he is accustomed with.

Then why is it that James Galway sounds ridiculous when he tries to play traditional irish tunes? It's because he can't. You seem to think that just because a violinist, for example, can play the most complex Bach composition with effortless fluidity, that he can play convincing old-time fiddle. That is not the case. And even a great classical guitarist can't play like Jimi Hendrix. It's not a question of virtuosity. It's a question of feel, style, energy, and more. It takes a rare person to pull off playing the pipes like Johnny Doran, or playing fiddle like Michael Coleman. True, the music they played wasn't as "sophisticated" in an art-music sense as those of classical composers. But the subtleties, drive, lilt, energy, passion, and skill they put into it was as impressive as any great musician who has ever lived.

 

 

 

Yeah, Boney I am right with you!

When I was about 20 years old I went to see James Galway with my father. He played Mozart (flute/harp concerto) and it was great. After the concert he wanted to give us a little ''encore''. And took a tin whistle. At that time I played whistle for 3 years (in the Netherlands, not in Ireland). I thought great! But what a dissapointment it was... I really had the feeling that I could do better then him (the very very great master James Galway himself'. He being an accomplished flutist (and Irishman) and me a beginner and a foreigner...

[David Levine]

Dick, can you give us a link or post a few words about

"what Alistair Anderson says in his tutor, on separation of notes."

Not all of us have access to AA's tutor. Thanks.

[Alan Day]

About 15 Years ago I went to the Willie Clancy Festival and became friendly with a player I had met the previous day in a pub in Dublin.This player I tried to find for English International without success.He kindly sent me a tape recording of the session and here he is playing the only solo piece he did during the evening.See if you like his playing of the English Concertina

Edited to remove the Irish clip.

If you would like to hear it please Email me

Al

Edited September 28, 2008 by Alan Day

[Larry Stout]

Alistair Anderson's tutor also gives a graphic which helps with understanding of how variation in bellows pressure ican be used to provide the drops and raises which give lift and life to dance music. The shape of the notes as well as the spacing between them contributes to nuance.

[Anglo-Irishman]

What I see here is someone with great talent who doesnt really try to play irish style and would not want to anyway.

 

And what, for you as a Canadian, is "Irish style"?

 

Cheers,

John

[michael stutesman]

Reply to DavidLevine.

page12 elements of technique.

one of the biggest stumbling blocks ive met both as a learner and teacher,is playing notes seperately from one another.when the notes are played highly seperated,this is known as staccato playing.But even in passages where staccato is not required,if you are not able to seperate the notes when you want to ,the whole thing will lack life,and tend to sound sloppy.

ive known people improve more in two days than two years by oserving this pointand starting to think about the way their fingers hit the buttons,and what is more the way they come off the buttons.I developed this seperation in my playing because Iwanted to play Northumbrian small pipe tunes,which tend to be staccato.[endof quote from Alistairs book]

as far as I am concerned this applies to all dance music[irish or otherwise,and yes there are more staccato styles of Irish playing]

I think, this comes before ornamentation,If you can ornament and play with life better still,but never sacrifice lift/bounce for ornamentation,you are better off dropping the ornaments,this is dance music,and the English concertina like the piano accordion is easy to play sludgily.

song accompaniment is different,slow songs are often good with notes running into each other,so its necessary to learn play legato,seperately,and highly seperately[ staccato].

it is primarily about finger attack,and listening,I often play with a GD MELODEON,This is agreat help,also playing with anglos helps ,if you are listening, you cant help but follow their phrasing.

last night I was teaching an anglo player,we had afew tunes afterwards,Iwas listening to him,and fitting in with his style.listen to others and listen to yourself.

 

 

This sums it up perfectly. EC playing largely suffers from the same thing as Piano accordion in dance music. You have to work at separating the notes clearly otherwise it just sounds mushy and will lift no-one's foot off the floor.

[catty]

So the phrases: "World class Jew's harp player", or "World class bones player" are really meaningless on a World scale.

 

Quite mistaken. Laitch has provided the correct perspective--there are those who are among the "best in the world," thus, "world class" in all human endeavors imaginable, obviously.

[chiton1]

quote name='dick miles' date='Sep 24 2008, 01:27 PM' post='78980']

Boney,made a statement about JamesGalway.

James Galway was a traditional music player before he was a classical musician,he plays whistle in a particular ulster style involving the use of tongeuing.

his music is very danceable,you may not like his style,but to say he cant play is incorrect.

 

Perhaps. I was young when I heard him play and my views of what I like or not have changed since. But I saw him much later playing with Matt Molloy (a Chieftains docu on tv)and there he also failed to impress me. His ''Irish'' music sounded very classical to my ears. He probably somewhat forgot his Irish traditional playing. I play the flute myself and I play with two good Ulster flute playing friends that come over to Brittany on a regular basis and their playing is not like that of James Galway (in a way that I prefer theirs). Or perhaps is it the Metal Flute V Wooden Flute?

[m3838]

A world class musician may not be always exciting to listen to, but can play anything at any given time in any given key or level of complexity (within reason).

A traditional musician is only capable of such things within the tunnel of music he is accustomed with.

Then why is it that James Galway sounds ridiculous when he tries to play traditional irish tunes?

Or Yehudi Menuhin playing jazz violin - alongside Stephan Grapelli he sounded like an amateur, which in that genre he was.

Don't make that mistake. Yehudi Menuhin played that jazz violin on the fly. Unlike Stephan Grapelli, he didn't practice his licks. Give the guy a week. Let's be within reason, ok? And you need to give a folk musician a life to sound like Menuhin, and I'm sure he will ask for more time.

But it's not the point anymore. The point is taking the English phrase out of it's usual, or more mainstream usage.

Don' t break your spears.

[m3838]

one of the biggest stumbling blocks ive met both as a learner and teacher,is playing notes seperately from one another.when the notes are played highly seperated,this is known as staccato playing.But even in passages where staccato is not required,if you are not able to seperate the notes when you want to ,the whole thing will lack life,and tend to sound sloppy.

ive known people improve more in two days than two years by oserving this pointand starting to think about the way their fingers hit the buttons,and what is more the way they come off the buttons.I developed this seperation in my playing because Iwanted to play Northumbrian small pipe tunes,which tend to be staccato.[endof quote from Alistairs book]

as far as I am concerned this applies to all dance music[irish or otherwise,and yes there are more staccato styles of Irish playing]

I think, this comes before ornamentation,If you can ornament and play with life better still,but never sacrifice lift/bounce for ornamentation,you are better off dropping the ornaments,this is dance music,and the English concertina like the piano accordion is easy to play sludgily.

song accompaniment is different,slow songs are often good with notes running into each other,so its necessary to learn play legato,seperately,and highly seperately[ staccato].

it is primarily about finger attack,and listening,I often play with a GD MELODEON,This is agreat help,also playing with anglos helps ,if you are listening, you cant help but follow their phrasing.

last night I was teaching an anglo player,we had afew tunes afterwards,Iwas listening to him,and fitting in with his style.listen to others and listen to yourself.

 

This sums it up perfectly. EC playing largely suffers from the same thing as Piano accordion in dance music. You have to work at separating the notes clearly otherwise it just sounds mushy and will lift no-one's foot off the flo

or.

 

It doesn't sum up anything, as 30 button AC often is played in a "mooshy" style. A good PA player is not affected by the above "logic". When necessary, they are playing stacatto, or legato. Nobody said Irish must be played stacatto, or dance music must be choppy. Smooth Waltz is dance music, and choppy tango too. Tango is played on bandoneons without bellows directions change.

Edited September 25, 2008 by m3838

[Mark Evans]

About 15 Years ago I went to the Willie Clancy Festival and became friendly with a player I had met the previous day in a pub in Dublin.This player I tried to find for English International without success.He kindly sent me a tape recording of the session and here he is playing the only solo piece he did during the evening.See if you like his playing of the English Concertina

 

I like it Al, but my taste is questionable. Crowd seems to enjoy it as well with some well deserved whoops and God love um' a bit of clapping when he's run his effort ta' ground.

 

All the do-da over Mr. Andersons tutor has crossed up my eyes. This old lunker perfers the box or banjo in hand makin' music with other people...listening to what they are doing and then adding what efforts my technical and emotional limitations can muster. Once in a while magic happens as we reach the end of a set of dance tunes or a song. Maybe a person or two look up from their own magic and except the offering and let loose a "whoop" and just maybe a clap or two or a thump on the table top.

 

Too much technical information makes me feel like my bulldog when the neighbor lady talks to him about what a "good boy" he is. "Obi, what a blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Wanna cookie?" Snap!

Edited September 25, 2008 by Mark Evans

[chiton1]

A world class musician may not be always exciting to listen to, but can play anything at any given time in any given key or level of complexity (within reason).

A traditional musician is only capable of such things within the tunnel of music he is accustomed with.

Then why is it that James Galway sounds ridiculous when he tries to play traditional irish tunes?

Or Yehudi Menuhin playing jazz violin - alongside Stephan Grapelli he sounded like an amateur, which in that genre he was.

Don't make that mistake. Yehudi Menuhin played that jazz violin on the fly. Unlike Stephan Grapelli, he didn't practice his licks. Give the guy a week. Let's be within reason, ok? And you need to give a folk musician a life to sound like Menuhin, and I'm sure he will ask for more time.

 

 

Sorry Misha but to me this is bulls... Your reasoning implies that thare are some classical superhumans that can do everything (give them a week.... ) and there are others capable of playing only short cute folky melodies or blubber a few jazzy notes. I remember that you once wrote that it was all about talent (and apparently talent can only be found among classical musicians...?). I am sure that among all the ''traditional'' musicians there will be some that would make great classical musicians would they have taken that road (or if they would have chosen that road) because they have all the capacities needed. I know a few anyway. Of course a great classical musician could play good whatever music if he really wants it, but probably not in a week though as he must unlearn many things which will be a lot more difficult for him than learning the new stuff.

But among all those thousands classical musicians there is a big majority of mediocre musicians or good but not outstanding ones (orchestras are filled with them). I think there are great musicians and there are not so great musicians and you will find them in any musical form (jazz, pop, rock, traditional, classical etc.).

[Azalin]

What I see here is someone with great talent who doesnt really try to play irish style and would not want to anyway.

 

And what, for you as a Canadian, is "Irish style"?

 

Cheers,

John

 

 

I could not answer that, I don't have the word for it, but as a canadian who goes to Ireland and New York relatively often, there's a mix of musicians I've met and really like listening to: Mary McNamara, Edel Fox, Tim Collins, Mike Raffery, Brian McNamara, Eoghan O'Sullivan, Mary Bergin, Catherine McEvoy, Mick O'Brien, Michael Rooney & June McCormak (when on concertina and flute), Geraldine McNamara, Eamoon and Geraldine Cotter, etc. My big weakness is that I don't listen enough to the older musicians, but I'm slowly trying to change that.

 

Even though I can't nearly play like them, I think I can recognize a good irish phrasing style.

[Roger Gawley]

This sums it up perfectly. EC playing largely suffers from the same thing as Piano accordion in dance music. You have to work at separating the notes clearly otherwise it just sounds mushy and will lift no-one's foot off the floor.

 

No you don't.

 

You have to separate the notes but it is no particular effort, more a way of looking at things. English players may be more inclined to start from a written tune and they are sometimes written out to look more uniform than they are played. You need to know what a hornpipe for instance should sound like but it is not particularly hard to play properly on English concertina.

[Azalin]

I'm wondering though, is there many ITM musicians with anglos that show up in english sessions and are very motivated at playing english tunes? I wonder if they do a better job at adapting to the style, and if some english musicians are annoyed with the same stuff many ITM musicians are.

[David Levine]

English musicians who play English music on an Anglo are, to my ears, wonderful players.

They play up and down on the rows, in C/G -- or in D/G if that is their concertina of choice.

The music is full of life and has great lift and vitality to it. The chording they do is wonderful.

I know that if I lived in England I'd forgive them everything and play English dance music.

[michael stutesman]

[

This sums it up perfectly. EC playing largely suffers from the same thing as Piano accordion in dance music. You have to work at separating the notes clearly otherwise it just sounds mushy and will lift no-one's foot off the flo

or.

 

It doesn't sum up anything, as 30 button AC often is played in a "mooshy" style. A good PA player is not affected by the above "logic". When necessary, they are playing stacatto, or legato. Nobody said Irish must be played stacatto, or dance music must be choppy. Smooth Waltz is dance music, and choppy tango too. Tango is played on bandoneons without bellows directions change.

 

 

The constant negativity of your comments gets tiresome. Try throwing in something positive once in a while just for variety.