Dan Worrall Posted August 25, 2008 Share Posted August 25, 2008 Just back from old Blighty, Wales, and the Emerald Isle. Does the sun ever shine there? Superb beer, scenery, people and music, though! Whilst there, I picked up a fine little book in a Welsh used book store: Music of the Sea, by David Proctor, 1192, published by the National Maritime Museum, Greenwich. Much to my surprise, its pages contain the following 'sighting' of a concertina....in the Spanish Armada. With no less an authority than the NMM weighing in on this, I'm afraid we must ask Messrs Wayne and Chambers to go back to the drawing board; clearly the concertina vastly predates Wheatstone, as they have contended. Au contraire, it must have been the product of Sir Charles's distant ancestor, Don Carlos Trigo y Piedra: p. 55-56 "Given the number of ships and men involved, and despite the need to concentrate on the fighting, there must have been moments when some music was needed for entertainment during the 1588 Gran Armada campaign, but for the English side there is no known mention of this. However, in the Spanish fleet musical instruments were carried in addition to the official trumpets, drums and pipes, as has been shown from the excavation of artifacts from the wreck of the Trinidad Valencera in Kinagoe Bay, County Donegal, Eire. She was a Venetian merchant ship converted for war store-carrying. Amongst the artefacts part of a stringed instrument like a guitar, a tambourine frame, and the hexagonal wooden end-pieces of a concertina ornamented in silver were found. On their tense voyage from Spain, and perhaps during their subsequent flight from the English around the north of Scotland and down the west coast of Ireland, the ship's company must have been glad of some musical light relief." No doubt they were playing the Spanish Jig....or was it the ever-popular Lady of Spain? Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Chambers Posted August 25, 2008 Share Posted August 25, 2008 (edited) Just back from old Blighty, Wales, and the Emerald Isle. Does the sun ever shine there? Dan, Not this year anyway! The other day I overheard a woman in Kilkee comment that "The summer's nearly over, and it hasn't even started yet!" Superb beer, scenery, people and music, though! Why thank you kindly, and also for the package the postman brought me this afternoon - well actually, he brought me two, the other was an 1860s German concertina off eBay... I think I'll wear the Lachenal T-shirt to Tom Carey's session tomorrow night. Whilst there, I picked up a fine little book in a Welsh used book store: Music of the Sea, by David Proctor, 1192, published by the National Maritime Museum, Greenwich. Never mind concertinas, do you realise you just pushed the date for the invention of printing back another 260 years , that's much more important to my inner librarian! Much to my surprise, its pages contain the following 'sighting' of a concertina....in the Spanish Armada. With no less an authority than the NMM weighing in on this, I'm afraid we must ask Messrs Wayne and Chambers to go back to the drawing board; clearly the concertina vastly predates Wheatstone, as they have contended. Au contraire, it must have been the product of Sir Charles's distant ancestor, Don Carlos Trigo y Piedra But that's not the earliest nautical sighting, let us not forget that the "ends of a concertina" were found on the wreck of Henry VIII's flagship the Mary Rose, which sank in 1545! And I think the Ennis Friary "concertinas" may have more to do with Piedra: http://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=2263 Edited August 25, 2008 by Stephen Chambers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wntrmute Posted August 25, 2008 Share Posted August 25, 2008 Um, huh? Seriously.... huh? Off the top of my head I can't think of any instrument that could be mistaken for a concertina. But weren't there early sextants or such that were hexagonal in shape? This must be like the hoax where some archeology magazine announced a researcher had found neanderthal bagpipes and nose-flutes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Chambers Posted August 25, 2008 Share Posted August 25, 2008 Where's "Old Leaky" when you need him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Worrall Posted August 25, 2008 Author Share Posted August 25, 2008 Just back from old Blighty, Wales, and the Emerald Isle. Does the sun ever shine there? Dan, Not this year anyway! The other day I overheard a woman in Kilkee comment that "The summer's nearly over, and it hasn't even started yet!" Superb beer, scenery, people and music, though! Why thank you kindly, and also for the package the postman brought me this afternoon - well actually, he brought me two, the other was an 1860s German concertina off eBay... I think I'll wear the Lachenal T-shirt to Tom Carey's session tomorrow night. Whilst there, I picked up a fine little book in a Welsh used book store: Music of the Sea, by David Proctor, 1192, published by the National Maritime Museum, Greenwich. Never mind concertinas, do you realise you just pushed the date for the invention of printing back another 240 years , that's much more important to my inner librarian! Much to my surprise, its pages contain the following 'sighting' of a concertina....in the Spanish Armada. With no less an authority than the NMM weighing in on this, I'm afraid we must ask Messrs Wayne and Chambers to go back to the drawing board; clearly the concertina vastly predates Wheatstone, as they have contended. Au contraire, it must have been the product of Sir Charles's distant ancestor, Don Carlos Trigo y Piedra But that's not the earliest nautical sighting, let us not forget that the "ends of a concertina" were found on the wreck of Henry VIII's flagship the Mary Rose, which sank in 1545! And I think the Ennis Friary "concertinas" may have more to do with Piedra: http://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=2263 Crimey, it was supposed to read 1992, not 1192. I plead jet lag. No way can anyone plead precedence with the Ennis priory thing ....it is basalt, not granite, and the stones are nice representatives of basaltic hexagonal 'columnar jointing'....the same sort of thing as at Giant's Causeway up in Antrim (cooling fractures; they look like a honeycomb when viewed from above the lava flow). I would guess those at Ennis came from the Causeway, or another such outcrop in northern Ireland....don't know any in S Ireland. Tertiary in age, if I remember right....that would be a ca. 50 million year old anglo! Haven't heard of the Mary Rose end plates, but they sound similar to those described on the Valentia...I thus provisionally yield the oldest sighting back to you Stephen (drat!). If anyone is in Derry, the materials from the ship are on display in the Tower museum there, and we could settle this! http://www.derrycity.gov.uk/museums/tower.asp Best, Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Chambers Posted August 25, 2008 Share Posted August 25, 2008 (edited) No way can anyone plead precedence with the Ennis priory thing Well of course the date of the thread is also of prime importance there. Though the naming of his son "Pablo" might seem to confirm Wheatstone's Spanish links... Haven't heard of the Mary Rose end plates, but they sound similar to those described on the Valentia...I thus provisionally yield the oldest sighting back to you Stephen (drat!). If anyone is in Derry, the materials from the ship are on display in the Tower museum there, and we could settle this! http://www.derrycity.gov.uk/museums/tower.asp I'd say they'd be similar to those from La Trinidad Valencera alright! In fact that's only how they identified them in the original catalogue, I think they're calling them something else now, like "box lids" (though isn't that the same thing? ) So maybe concertinas originally came into Clare with shipwrecked sailors from the Spanish Armada? Edited August 26, 2008 by Stephen Chambers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Worrall Posted August 25, 2008 Author Share Posted August 25, 2008 So maybe concertinas originally came into Clare with shipwrecked sailors from the Spanish Armada? Groan...here we go again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Chambers Posted August 25, 2008 Share Posted August 25, 2008 (edited) So maybe concertinas originally came into Clare with shipwrecked sailors from the Spanish Armada? Groan...here we go again! Up Kilrush Creek, without a paddle... Edited August 26, 2008 by Stephen Chambers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod Posted August 26, 2008 Share Posted August 26, 2008 . Can none of you produce some sort of genuinely original pictorial evidence for these hexagonal wooden end-pieces, or would that be spoiling all the fun ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Chambers Posted August 26, 2008 Share Posted August 26, 2008 Can none of you produce some sort of genuinely original pictorial evidence for these hexagonal wooden end-pieces... Rod, Unfortunately it's maybe 30 years since I read of the Mary Rose "concertina ends" (or was it just one end they found?), and since my reaction then was one of "what nonsense!", I'm afraid I didn't bother to buy the book, so I don't have pictures. But isn't it amazing how two supposed experts in marine archaeology/artefacts have seen hexagonal box lids, from 16th century wreck sites, and gone "concertina ends"! I think it shows just how strong the old "sailors and concertinas" cliche is in the public mind. ... would that be spoiling all the fun ? "Fun"? You don't think we're having "fun" do you? This is a serious academic debate on how things can become "accepted history" , a continuation of what Dan and I were discussing when he was here. Good heavens, we don't do "fun", or "irony", or "levity" on Concertina.net, ask Old Cranky, Creaky, sorry Leaky... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Worrall Posted August 26, 2008 Author Share Posted August 26, 2008 Can none of you produce some sort of genuinely original pictorial evidence for these hexagonal wooden end-pieces... ... would that be spoiling all the fun ? "Fun"? You don't think we're having "fun" do you? This is a serious academic debate on how things can become "accepted history" , a continuation of what Dan and I were discussing when he was here. Good heavens, we don't do "fun", or "irony", or "levity" on Concertina.net, ask Old Cranky, Creaky, sorry Leaky... Ain't nobody having fun here .... we're serious researchers. I'm the one on the right; Stephen is the one with the longer hair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wntrmute Posted August 26, 2008 Share Posted August 26, 2008 You know, when Hollywood puts a 19th century invention in a movie about the 17th or 18th century, that's understandable. Hollywood is full of morons. But when museums and archeologists make a mistake like that it's sloppy and inexcusible. They're not supposed to be morons. Cognitive dissonance makes me cranky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Chambers Posted August 26, 2008 Share Posted August 26, 2008 I'm the one on the right; Stephen is the one with the longer hair. But Dan, I'm also the one with a beard - though I wish I could play like the guy on the left (Regondi)! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Worrall Posted August 26, 2008 Author Share Posted August 26, 2008 (edited) I'm the one on the right; Stephen is the one with the longer hair. But Dan, I'm also the one with a beard - though I wish I could play like the guy on the left (Regondi)! Yes, and the fellow on the right is John Preston Johnston, who was another Christine Hawkes, if you catch my drift.... Wintermute, don't be too hard on Mr. Proctor....we all slip up from time to time! I'm still smarting from the lashing (well, not really that bad) I got for flubbing a couple of English town locations in my Kimber book, and for not recognizing that Over the Hills to Glory is a schottische. If Proctor's slip makes him a moron, then I must be a sea slug. No offense to sea slugs! Edited August 26, 2008 by Dan Worrall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wntrmute Posted August 26, 2008 Share Posted August 26, 2008 But Dan, I'm also the one with a beard - though I wish I could play like the guy on the left (Regondi)! His feet are frightenly dainty in that picture. I think we ought to have someone 'discover' a Grecian Urn with a picture of Jason playing a concertina for the Argonauts. We can then credit the invention to Uhligopolous and Wheatstonicles and finally put an end to the idea that the concertina is a kind of accordion. Anyways, I got a D in my first collegiate history class, so what can I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wild Posted August 26, 2008 Share Posted August 26, 2008 Anyways, I got a D in my first collegiate history class, so what can I know. You should have tried harder - you might have got a C major!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anglo-Irishman Posted September 6, 2008 Share Posted September 6, 2008 Anyways, I got a D in my first collegiate history class, so what can I know. You should have tried harder - you might have got a C major!! John, I confused my music teacher by having a relatively good ear, but being - totally and incorrigibly - musically illiterate. So guess what I got for music: yes, a C/G Cheers, John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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