Technical Question About The Anglo...

[Azalin]

OK, here's one more question from me and I'll stop for a while before I become too much annoying :-)

 

I've been told that it's best to use first finger for first row column, second finger for second row column, etc, and that we should always try to keep the fingers assigned to their own row column. So I've been reworking on this Gminor tune, relearning so that it meets my new rules. But this Gminor tune, if I want to play it without using a finger that's going to go from it's row column, has a bunch of notes on the pull, I think 7 in a row. Here's a clip I just recoreded (took me half an hour to manage to play this with the new fingering)

 

Clip

 

After the first note, the G#, I play G row pull A, same button push G, and then the 7 following notes, starting with F Nat, are on the pull, until the next F natural.

 

I need some advice. What would be best here, to try to displace a finger to play a note on the push instead, like using the middle finger to play the G# in one instance, so that it jumps a bit?

 

I mean, would you make your fingers move a bit more, even borrowing them from their row column, to try to improve the phrasing at the cost of it being a bit more difficult to play.

 

I often borrow fingers to optimize places where there's no other choice, so I'm not against borrowing fingers, but I'm just curous about occasions where you have a choice between adding some jumpiness versus ease of play.

 

In this specific tune, I'm still not sure if pulling 7 notes in a row is bad phrasing (based on my own tastes) so I guess I'll need to experiment more.

Edited August 12, 2008 by Azalin

[m3838]

I've been told that it's best to use first finger for first row, second finger for second row, etc, and that we should always try to keep the fingers assigned to their own row.

 

You clearly are talking about Anglo, but bring the suggestion for English.

I don't believe you can assign fingers to the row. Or you mean the buttons along the row?

It probably be a good idea, with your intuitive decision to "borrow" fingers from other "rows" (probably buttons). Sounds like you are on your way, and your spacing, judging by the sound clip, is very good. I wish my spacing would be like that. Good going.

[Azalin]

I've been told that it's best to use first finger for first row, second finger for second row, etc, and that we should always try to keep the fingers assigned to their own row.

 

You clearly are talking about Anglo, but bring the suggestion for English.

I don't believe you can assign fingers to the row. Or you mean the buttons along the row?

It probably be a good idea, with your intuitive decision to "borrow" fingers from other "rows" (probably buttons). Sounds like you are on your way, and your spacing, judging by the sound clip, is very good. I wish my spacing would be like that. Good going.

 

Oops I meant COLUMN I think! Column!! :-)

[Azalin]

Sounds like you are on your way, and your spacing, judging by the sound clip, is very good. I wish my spacing would be like that. Good going.

 

Thanks but it's not because of me, it's because I'm playing an anglo!

[David Levine]

You clearly are talking about Anglo, but bring the suggestion for English.

I don't believe you can assign fingers to the row. Or you mean the buttons along the row?

 

M3838 -- have you played both Anglo and English?

Musically, columns on the English are very different from columns on the Anglo.

Briefly- columns are vertical -- rows are horizontal.

With English the fingers are moving up and down the columns. One finger per button, right?

With Anglo my understanding is that the fingers have "position," as on the fiddle.

Finger position relates to column.

Normal position is with index fingers on the G/A or D/E (LH) and B/C or F#/G (RH) buttons.

I don't think that fingering patterns or positions are at all similar from English to Anglo.

I've played both and the Anglo presents certain problems that you don't have on the English.

Meaning: you can't "bring the suggestion for English."

Edited August 12, 2008 by cocusflute

[m3838]

You clearly are talking about Anglo, but bring the suggestion for English.

I don't believe you can assign fingers to the row. Or you mean the buttons along the row?

 

M3838 -- have you played both Anglo and English?

Yes

Meaning: you can't "bring the suggestion for English."

 

Your differentiation between "rows" and "columns" works for the situation, where there are both. In English there are four rows of buttons, or four comums, whatever, but no perpendicular columns (or rows). On anglo there are obvious rows and not-so-obvious semi-columns. Since Anglo is not arranged by columns, and appearance of diagonal column-like design is accidental, doesn't serve any purpose, we can say that Anglo doesn't have any columns.

On Crane Duet there are Rows AND Columns, can be used for locating a particular button: "second column, third row". Or it can be: "second row, third button from the handrest.

If you insist that a Column is simply a vertical row, then by the way Cranes and Englishes are played, their Columns are definitely rows, but Anglos rows, esp. on those 20 button German ones, are definitely columns.

Meaning: I appreciate you been so positive.

Edited August 12, 2008 by m3838

[Phantom Button]

After the first note, the G#, I play G row pull A, same button push G, and then the 7 following notes, starting with F Nat, are on the pull, until the next F natural.

I play this tune in Gm as well. I play the Bb on the top row with my index finger and then use my ring finger on the G row for the A/pull and G/push and back to the C row with my middle finger for the F/pull and ring finger on C row for the D/pull. I follow the same pattern going back up. It works nicely because the pushed notes fall on the back beat and continue to through the next bar. This makes it easier to play and remember as well as utilizing the push and pull nicely.

[Azalin]

After the first note, the G#, I play G row pull A, same button push G, and then the 7 following notes, starting with F Nat, are on the pull, until the next F natural.

I play this tune in Gm as well. I play the Bb on the top row with my index finger and then use my ring finger on the G row for the A/pull and G/push and back to the C row with my middle finger for the F/pull and ring finger on C row for the D/pull. I follow the same pattern going back up. It works nicely because the pushed notes fall on the back beat and continue to through the next bar. This makes it easier to play and remember as well as utilizing the push and pull nicely.

 

After the pull D, what do you do? This is where I don't have any other choice than pulling many notes in a row if I don't want to be using the same finger to play two different buttons in a row...

[Phantom Button]

After the first note, the G#, I play G row pull A, same button push G, and then the 7 following notes, starting with F Nat, are on the pull, until the next F natural.

I play this tune in Gm as well. I play the Bb on the top row with my index finger and then use my ring finger on the G row for the A/pull and G/push and back to the C row with my middle finger for the F/pull and ring finger on C row for the D/pull. I follow the same pattern going back up. It works nicely because the pushed notes fall on the back beat and continue to through the next bar. This makes it easier to play and remember as well as utilizing the push and pull nicely.

 

After the pull D, what do you do? This is where I don't have any other choice than pulling many notes in a row if I don't want to be using the same finger to play two different buttons in a row...

Are you using the G-row? I follow the same buttons with the same fingers right up again. D, C-row, ring finger pull... F, C-row, middle finger pull... G G-row, ring finger PUSH... Bb Top-row, index finger pull.

[Azalin]

Ah, I just got it, listen to the clip I posted, we don't play excatly the same notes, which makes it a bit more problematic for me.

[ceemonster]

hmmm....az, my two cents here isn't about this specific passage. it's about the column principle or rule you described hearing in class. my take on that is that this principle is a good GENERAL or default approach that one shouldn't take too literally as in, follow 100% of the time. i have heard something like this in a couple of classes and took it to be intended as a general rule of thumb (ha, or index middle and fourth) that helps keep you from tangling up or being without fingers at a given point in the tune. but you won't always literally be sticking like glue to those very columns. i would think of it as, sure, generally try to keep your fingers in these areas, but move when you have to or when it works better for a phrasing you want, so long as you don't tangle up, box yourself into a dead end, or put yourself in a position where you dont' have a finger for what is next in the tune. i move away in certain situations but return back to the default position as soon as i'm finished with whatever i moved for.

Edited August 13, 2008 by ceemonster

[Phantom Button]

Ah, I just got it, listen to the clip I posted, we don't play excatly the same notes, which makes it a bit more problematic for me.

Gm isn't my best key, but here's a clip of me playing the tune so you can see where I was going and how I've solved the tune.

[hjcjones]

It's helpful to have a "home position" where the fingers usually rest, so you know where you're starting from. For me this on the top 4 buttons of the C row. And it makes a certain amount of sense for the fingers not to stray too far from this position. But to make it a rigid rule would not be helpful. For a start, there are 5 columns and you've only got four fingers, so one will have to share. If you move up to an instrument with more buttons you may have 6 or even 7 columns, but you've still only got four fingers.

 

It's important to get the right fingering for a phrase, and if this means using the "wrong" finger then that's fine - the right one is the one which works for you. Sometimes the fingering of a phrase will be affected by the fingerings of the phrases leading into and out of it.

 

It's possibly not applicable to Irish music, but there's a nice little run from G-A-B on the push (or F-G-A on the pull) which I use a lot. 3rd finger on 3rd button C row, index finger on 2nd button accidental row, middle finger on 2nd button G row. To play this using the one-finger-per-column "rule" would mean jumping the middle finger from the outer to the inner row - it simply wouldn't flow. There are plenty of other examples.

 

"Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of the wise"

[Phantom Button]

It's helpful to have a "home position" where the fingers usually rest, so you know where you're starting from. For me this on the top 4 buttons of the C row.

For Irish music your left hand pinkie finger's home button should be the D/F# button on the G row. The reason being that instead of the C scale, the D scale is the home scale.