Lachenal Post And Action Board Failure

[mthatcher61]

I have been having problems with a couple of posts popping up out of the action board lateley. When I remove the top I can see that the post itself has popped up out of the action plate, obviously this raises the arm and the pad doesnt seat properly and the notes sounds continously. I also noticed that one of the keys that I dont have problems with looks like it may have had a similar issue previously and has been glued down into the plate. I can see a blob of something right there where the post sinks into the plate. I have pushed the offending posts back in and it fixes it for a bit then they pop back up again. What I want to know is....Can I super glue that bad boy back into the plate so it wont pop back out anymore? Is that a viable fix? Is there a better way to fix it maybe?

Mark

[Theo]

If you are not keen to use superglue then a simple fix is to remove the post the insert a thin sliver of fairly soft wood into the hole then re-insert the post. The pointed tip of a cocktail stick is good for this. The same material is also good for packing screw holes that have enlarged.

[mthatcher61]

Thanks Theo, I am not adverse to using super glue. I was just wondering if it was a viable solution. I have used the tooth pick technique before when trying to attach a pickguard to an old archtop guitar whose screw holes were worn too large. It worked fine then. But if it's OK to use super glue then I just may try that first on the loose posts. Of course I will try not to smear it all over the action board

Thanks.

Mark

[Wally Carroll]

Thanks Theo, I am not adverse to using super glue. I was just wondering if it was a viable solution. I have used the tooth pick technique before when trying to attach a pickguard to an old archtop guitar whose screw holes were worn too large. It worked fine then. But if it's OK to use super glue then I just may try that first on the loose posts. Of course I will try not to smear it all over the action board

Thanks.

Mark

Superglue is ok but I would opt for something a little more reversible like Elmer's White Glue. First take a wire cutter and lightly squeeze the tail of the post (the part that goes into the wood) to score it in two places. Then put a drop of glue into the actionboard lever hole and press the lever in. Some of the glue will fill into the scored area and dry thus giving a better grip than just pushing the post back in place.

[mthatcher61]

Thanks Wally,

Good advice. I wish I would have thought or heard about that sooner but I already used the super glue on the latest bad post. It seems to be holding fine. There is another post that was giving me problems ( the thumb post for the air button) I had pushed that one back in a couple of times before the superglue idea came to me. That one has held since the last time I pushed it in. So I havent used super glue on it. I am a firm believer in 'if it aint broke, dont fix it'. Hopefully it will continue to hold but if it doesnt then I will try Elmers first and super glue as a last resort.

The more I think about it, I cant see how the broken off end of a toothpick, or sliver of wood ,would work with a post. It worked when I used it in a screw hole but these lachenal posts arent screwed in, they seem pressed in. What normally keeps these posts in once they are pressed into the wood, considering that the springs are actually pressing the levers up, so I wood think the levers being pressed into the closed position would press the posts out of their holes?

Mark

[Theo]

What normally keeps these posts in once they are pressed into the wood, considering that the springs are actually pressing the levers up, so I wood think the levers being pressed into the closed position would press the posts out of their holes?

Mark

 

Friction keeps the post in place. Think of it as a nail with a specially shaped head. Adding the toothpick wood makes the hole smaller and increases the amount of friction when the post is pressed back in.

[Bill N]

. Hopefully it will continue to hold but if it doesnt then I will try Elmers first and super glue as a last resort.

 

If you want to use something even more reversible, I can recommend Fish Glue. You can buy a small bottle at fine woodworking supply places (I get mine in Canada from Lee Valley Tools). It's not expensive, very strong, easy and safe to use, and completely removable with a few drops of water or some steam. It's like the old hide glue used by the early concertina makers, but doesn't need to be kept hot. I use it for antique restoration.

[malcolm clapp]

While it is likely that part of the cause of the problem is that the wood has been affected by humidity changes over the years, I wonder whether your spring tensions might be a bit high?

 

I have a Lachenal 30 key anglo in the workshop at the moment with that same problem, and apart from refitting the posts as described above, I have backed off the spring tensions considerably, while still keeping the pads free from air loss. Hopefully, that will help prevent a recurrence of the problem.

 

Of course, the amount you can reduce the spring tension depends to some extent on the condition of the pads and that of the surface upon which they seal.

 

I don't think I have ever managed to quite reduce a Lachenal anglo button pressure to the lightness of that on, say, a Morse Ceili, but construction differences also have a part to play in this, so perhaps it is an unfair comparison.

 

Sorry, I've drifted slightly off topic, but on the basis that prevention is sometimes better than cure, the above might be useful....

 

MC

[ragtimer]

. Hopefully it will continue to hold but if it doesn't then I will try Elmer's first and super glue as a last resort.

 

If you want to use something even more reversible, I can recommend Fish Glue. You can buy a small bottle at fine woodworking supply places (I get mine in Canada from Lee Valley Tools). It's not expensive, very strong, easy and safe to use, and completely removable with a few drops of water or some steam. It's like the old hide glue used by the early concertina makers, but doesn't need to be kept hot. I use it for antique restoration.

Yes, you do want something reversible, for future repairs.

 

THere is also Liquid Hide Glue, sold by Franklin, which has the same advantages as fish glue. I use it for woodworking projects and repair of zithers, autoharps, etc. Very strong.

 

However, neither fish nor hide glue are all that great for sticking to metal. What will stick is Burnt Shellac, which you make yourself by putting a little shellac in a metal jar lid and letting it burn till about half of it is gone. You want the remainder to be a bit gooey, not watery.

 

It sticks to metal and wood alike, and can be dissolved and removed by alcohol.

I'm not sure how strong it is, but if it fails, you can always try something else.

 

--Mike K.

Edited August 8, 2008 by ragtimer

[Bill N]

What will stick is Burnt Shellac, which you make yourself by putting a little shellac in a metal jar lid and letting it burn till about half of it is gone. You want the remainder to be a bit gooey, not watery.

 

Great tip Mike! Do you ignite the shellac directly (Opa!) or apply the heat indirectly?

[Frank Edgley]

I would definitely stay away from Super Glue on future repairs. A few years ago, I had to remove a post from my 12 year old Dipper to replace the rivet which had worn out and was clacking. It came out easily enough. I removed the old rivet and replaced it with a slightly oversized one from Colin. I reinstalled the post using Super Glue. When I discovered that the rivet was a bit too tight I needed to remove the post again to rectify the problem. I won't go into details as they are too messy. Needless to say it wouldn't come out... and major surgery was required!

[ragtimer]

What will stick is Burnt Shellac, which you make yourself by putting a little shellac in a metal jar lid and letting it burn till about half of it is gone. You want the remainder to be a bit gooey, not watery.

 

Great tip Mike! Do you ignite the shellac directly (Opa!) or apply the heat indirectly?

Yes, the Oopah method. You put the liquid shellac in a shallow dish, light it, and let it burn till about half is left. Of course you're careful where you do this!

 

I understand that it isn't as effective to start with dry shellac poweder and just mix it with half as much alcohol. You need the heat treatment of the fire to carmelize the shellac and make it gooey and sticky.

 

As I warned before, burnt shellac is used as a sealer in player pianos, where metal nipples must be airtight into wood. I don't know how strong it is, but has to be better than just friction fit (?)

 

And it's reversible -- dissolves in alcohol (be careful at those pub gigs :-)

--Mike K.

Edited August 16, 2008 by ragtimer