Suttner Vs Dipper

[Stephen Chambers]

Allright but I live in a city where no one has a Suttner or a Dipper, and the odds that I will ever be able to sit down and compare a Suttner and a Dipper at the same time are pretty thin.

If it's any consolation (though it's probably no help at all to you), I doubt if many people (anywhere) have ever had the opportunity to compare them, side-by-side...

[Chris Timson]

It simply means Suttner has better taste: he prefers irish music!

Well, I've no idea about Jurgen Suttner's taste in music; however I think I now have a good idea of yours.

 

Chris

[Azalin]

what would be useful here would be to understand what makes a good concertina.

I understand that the best Wheatstone aeoles had longer reeds,is this true?

now we all know different variety of wood has different sound,for example, spruce on a guitar will sound different from Cedar,IF a concertina maker,used plywood for a sound board,would it sound as good as lets say maple/sycamore or a natural wood that is going to improve with age .

will the size of the concertina and the size of the hole in the sound board affect the acoustics?

we know that the there is a difference in sound produced by metal and wooden ended concertinas . some people believe that the best reeds in vintage concertinas,were all made by one man,now was that the quality of the steel or because the reed maker had some technique,that other reed makers didnt,or was it both?.

some people believe that a lighter concertina can be made using alloy reed frames[well thats fine as long as the concertina doesnt get wet]this might explain the difference in weight.

even the amount of fretwork on the end of a concertina can alter the acoustic sound allowing more air toexit from the ends.Dick Miles

 

Very interesting, thanks for the info!

[JohnEverist]

my subjective, inexpert opinion:

 

I've owned a very nice C/G Dipper for almost four years, "customized" and "set up" for Irish music as spec'd by the guy I bought it from - new condition.

 

I've not played any other top level concertinas on any kind of consistent basis, but have experienced a couple other Dippers, two Jeffries, and last fall a very nice Suttner belonging to a professional player. The major difference between my Dipper and the Suttner (other than the sound) was the button shape, length, and travel. The Dipper buttons are a good 1/4 inch beyond the surface with an 1/8 to 5/32 of travel. The Suttner buttons were maybe 5/32 beyond, more rounded, with less travel. Made for a completely different playing experience. I had a couple of tunes on the Suttner and didn't really get comfortable, but it was obviously a great instrument. I believe that these button/action details can be specified on any custom order instrument, providing you know what you want.

 

About the same time I was able to play a nice Jeffries belonging to a young Irish woman and she played my Dipper. I thought the Suttner had a very similar feel to the Jeffries. Doesn't Mr. Suttner model his instruments on Jeffries? In any event the young woman put her finger on the only enduring question I've had about the Dipper: its noisy. As in "pad slap" after you get off the note. you can minimize the "pad slap" sound if you play with a light touch and don't snap your fingers off the buttons after pushing them all the way in, and I've worked hard at this. But the Jeffries and Suttner did not seem to have this issue. Does any one else notice this about Dippers or other concertinas?

 

This being said, I would not have traded the Dipper for any of these other instruments. It sounds glorious. Four years on it just gets better and better. I consider myself extremely fortunate to have been able to buy it when it came up. The only other concertina (recordings or live) that I thought sounded as good or better was Claire Keville's on the U-Tube clip of Port Hole of the Kelp. I had always assumed that she was playing a Jeffries, but earlier in this thread Peter Laban says she plays a Dipper. Is it a Dipper in this clip?

 

Anyway, I hope this is the kind of information you are looking for, Azalin. I'd be grateful for any comments on the pad slap thing.

 

John

[m3838]

The only other concertina (recordings or live) that I thought sounded as good or better was Claire Keville's on the U-Tube clip of Port Hole of the Kelp. I had always assumed that she was playing a Jeffries, but earlier in this thread Peter Laban says she plays a Dipper. Is it a Dipper in this clip?

Can you provide the link?

I only found her playing with the fiddler and it's difficult to make concertina sound out of the blend.

It's always nice to see/hear what people mean, when they say "sound is glorious". And I'm surprised about clicking pads. Pads shouldn't click, end of story. Have you tried to "rough" them up a little? May be it's time to replace them then?

If those cajun accordion's pads don't click, why tiny concertina pads, that are not lifted much, do?

[Richard Morse]

Allright but I live in a city where no one has a Suttner or a Dipper, and the odds that I will ever be able to sit down and compare a Suttner and a Dipper at the same time are pretty thin.

If it's any consolation (though it's probably no help at all to you), I doubt if many people (anywhere) have ever had the opportunity to compare them, side-by-side...

You could vastly improve the odds of playing a Suttner, Dipper, Jeffries, Dickinson Wheatstone, etc. in one place if you'd partake of events like Kilve, Witney, NE Squeeze-In and the NE Concertina Workshops. While I haven't been to any events in the UK, I think most (if not ALL) the NESI and NCW events have had all the above concertinas there at the same time.

 

-- Rich --

 

PS: In response to your "the top of the top "concertina-reeded" concertina makers are Suttner and Dipper" consideration.... I've played a few Suttners and many more Dippers. Both makers' concertinas had considerable quality differences making the boxes hard to compare.... but for the type of music *I* like to play my vote for the best quality concertina maker goes to Steve Dickinson of Wheatstone.

[Chris Timson]

Yep, it's all subjective...

 

Chris

 

Edited to add PS: Back when I started playing concertina there were just two makers of instruments using traditional reeds, viz, the Dippers and Steve Dickinson. At that time I said in the FAQ that I wouldn't want to choose between them for quality. I've let the statement stand in the intervening years and I will continue to do so, but I've had further thoughts. There are a lot more Dippers around than Dickinson/Wheatstones. The Dippers have done their level best to meet the demand and have always tried to balance their prices between what they could get and what they need to live on. I have a lot of time for them as people. I think there is more to being a good make than just being skillful with your fingers.

Edited July 28, 2008 by Chris Timson

[wntrmute]

.... but for the type of music *I* like to play my vote for the best quality concertina maker goes to Steve Dickinson of Wheatstone.

Pssst....you do know that you make your own brand of concertinas, right?

I know it's an apples/oranges thing, but you can still stick up for the home team a bit.

[Stephen Chambers]

You could vastly improve the odds of playing a Suttner, Dipper, Jeffries, Dickinson Wheatstone, etc. in one place if you'd partake of events like Kilve, Witney, NE Squeeze-In and the NE Concertina Workshops. While I haven't been to any events in the UK, I think most (if not ALL) the NESI and NCW events have had all the above concertinas there at the same time.

Rich,

 

I'm sure you're right about the American events (and maybe I'll find out someday, now that I've an American girlfriend!), but I'm not sure about there being many so many Suttners in England these days, though maybe there are...

 

Anybody?

Edited July 29, 2008 by Stephen Chambers

[Stephen Chambers]

The only other concertina (recordings or live) that I thought sounded as good or better was Claire Keville's on the U-Tube clip of Port Hole of the Kelp. I had always assumed that she was playing a Jeffries, but earlier in this thread Peter Laban says she plays a Dipper. Is it a Dipper in this clip?

I presume you mean this one, from 2006?

 

In which case that is a Jeffries she's playing. She only got her Dipper (which has wooden ends) this year.

[Dana Johnson]

what would be useful here would be to understand what makes a good concertina.

I understand that the best Wheatstone aeoles had longer reeds,is this true?

now we all know different variety of wood has different sound,for example, spruce on a guitar will sound different from Cedar,IF a concertina maker,used plywood for a sound board,would it sound as good as lets say maple/sycamore or a natural wood that is going to improve with age .

will the size of the concertina and the size of the hole in the sound board affect the acoustics?

we know that the there is a difference in sound produced by metal and wooden ended concertinas . some people believe that the best reeds in vintage concertinas,were all made by one man,now was that the quality of the steel or because the reed maker had some technique,that other reed makers didnt,or was it both?.

some people believe that a lighter concertina can be made using alloy reed frames[well thats fine as long as the concertina doesnt get wet]this might explain the difference in weight.

even the amount of fretwork on the end of a concertina can alter the acoustic sound allowing more air toexit from the ends.Dick Miles

It would be really useful if us concertina makers understood what made a really good concertina. We wouldn't bother making anything else! Sadly it isn't an exact science as yet. Consequently, while the really good makers will make their average instrument better than somebody's with less talent/ experience, they still have variations between their instruments that are hard to explain. Certainly attention to detail especially in the reeds counts, but you will find great concertinas with both loose and close fitting reeds ( within reason ) and mediocre concertinas with quite good reeds in them. Individual pieces of wood vary enough to make or break a concertina at the higher levels, and just because one type of laminated wood makes terrible reed pans, doesn't mean all laminated reed pans are inferior. For each type of concertina be it Dipper, Suttner, Jeffries, Wheatstone or whatever, You might say there is an ideal where they are at their maximum of responsiveness, range of volume, clarity of tone... Everything comes together in one instrument, but to the naked eye and even in dimensions, they might seem identical to much poorer instruments. What makes the difference? Those who know aren't telling.

 

Neither Colin or Jurgen's instruments are more uniform in my experience than the other. Colin doesn't make copies of other instruments while Jugen has both Wheatstone and Jeffries models. The tone difference is a matter of taste period. Stephen Is likely in the know about the Ireland concertina scene, but I expect waiting time has a lot to do with it. Jurgen's wait is shorter and his output is higher. New players are more likely to have a good Suttner to play before they turn grey, and their concertina heros are more and more playing them since they do the job admirably. Given the circumstances, they will end up dominating the market.

 

Speculation about what makes a good concertina is all well and good, but unless you get it from Colin or Jurgen's mouth, Speculation is all it is. I can speak with moderate authority about my own instruments, but not theirs. The most knowledgeable people I know don't have all the answers.

Dana

[Azalin]

Neither Colin or Jurgen's instruments are more uniform in my experience than the other. Colin doesn't make copies of other instruments while Jugen has both Wheatstone and Jeffries models. The tone difference is a matter of taste period. Stephen Is likely in the know about the Ireland concertina scene, but I expect waiting time has a lot to do with it. Jurgen's wait is shorter and his output is higher. New players are more likely to have a good Suttner to play before they turn grey, and their concertina heros are more and more playing them since they do the job admirably. Given the circumstances, they will end up dominating the market.

 

Colin told be he still has a three years waiting list, I've been on it for some time, and Suttner is supposed to be four years... Maybe Dipper takes longer for less standard models?

[Richard Morse]

I'm sure you're right about the American events (and maybe I'll find out someday, now that I've an American girlfriend!), but I'm not sure about there being many so many Suttners in England these days, though maybe there are...

Suttners aren't common over here either but they do crop up from time to time. In fact we have one for sale in our shop right now (on a shelf right between a Jeffries and one of our Morses).

 

Maybe when you do come over you could time it to correspond with one of our events?

 

-- Rich --

[jdms]

I'm sure you're right about the American events (and maybe I'll find out someday, now that I've an American girlfriend!), but I'm not sure about there being many so many Suttners in England these days, though maybe there are...

Suttners aren't common over here either but they do crop up from time to time. In fact we have one for sale in our shop right now (on a shelf right between a Jeffries and one of our Morses).

 

Maybe when you do come over you could time it to correspond with one of our events?

 

-- Rich --

 

Well, there's the Connor...

...and I think I remember you having a Dipper recently? Or was that a Suttner? It doesn't seem to be on the website now, though.

 

jdms

[Stephen Chambers]

It would be really useful if us concertina makers understood what made a really good concertina. ... What makes the difference? Those who know aren't telling.

 

The most knowledgeable people I know don't have all the answers.

Dana,

 

Absolutely!

 

Indeed you remind me of Alf Edward's 1937 Æola that I'm playing these days, though I wouldn't normally expect to think so highly of an instrument made at that time. It has the plywood construction and hook-action that you'd expect of the period, plus the fretwork is a bit crude compared with what they were still doing only a few years previously, however it's heavier than normal and has the most wonderful tone, not forgetting an amazing dynamic range. So did they pull out all the stops (by then available) to make it, or is it more to do with Alf playing it for the best part of half a century? Or a combination of the two?

Edited July 29, 2008 by Stephen Chambers

[Stephen Chambers]

I'm not sure about there being many so many Suttners in England these days, though maybe there are...

Suttners aren't common over here either but they do crop up from time to time. In fact we have one for sale in our shop right now (on a shelf right between a Jeffries and one of our Morses).

 

Rich,

 

Don't look now, but it's not showing up in your link...

 

I'm sure you're right about the American events (and maybe I'll find out someday, now that I've an American girlfriend!)

Maybe when you do come over you could time it to correspond with one of our events?

Maybe, but she's from Seattle, which isn't too handy for visiting your NE events - though I did get to see Wim Wakker, in Spokane, last time I was over, and to meet a few of the Pacific NW players.

[Guest Peter Laban]

The only other concertina (recordings or live) that I thought sounded as good or better was Claire Keville's on the U-Tube clip of Port Hole of the Kelp. I had always assumed that she was playing a Jeffries, but earlier in this thread Peter Laban says she plays a Dipper. Is it a Dipper in this clip?

 

She only got it fairly recently (late last year?) , after a five year wait.

[JohnEverist]

thanks to Stephen Chambers and Peter Laban for clarifying Ms. Keville's concertina make in the U Tube clip. apologies to M3838 for not posting the link. The one provided by Stephen C is the one I was referring to.

 

J