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It takes more than hours of practice, it takes established school. The reason I say it, is because established school of playing, been rigid and all that, in it's turn gives guidelines to builders, that so far are on their own and have to invent the wheel. A school expects certain qualities from the sound and action, reed response and volume. Some instruments been accepted by the school send clear message to the rest. Without it you don't have uniformity in sound, range and action, can't teach students, can't write music for the instrument.

Then why don't you set one up and show us what you're talking about?

Why me? I'm not a doer, I'm a talker.

A school can't be set up, it's a process, like life. It can be killed, but not brought at will.

If you want to know what I'm talking about, try one of top of the line accordions, Titano, Excelsior, Jupiter, Pigini, Zupan. You'll immediately feel the class. No excuses there. For serious music you need serious instrument, one that has no difference in feel troughout the range, and without the school it's impossible.

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It takes more than hours of practice, it takes established school. The reason I say it, is because established school of playing, been rigid and all that, in it's turn gives guidelines to builders, that so far are on their own and have to invent the wheel. A school expects certain qualities from the sound and action, reed response and volume. Some instruments been accepted by the school send clear message to the rest. Without it you don't have uniformity in sound, range and action, can't teach students, can't write music for the instrument.

Then why don't you set one up and show us what you're talking about?

Why me? I'm not a doer, I'm a talker.

It seems an issue you are passionate about. You seem to care a great deal about it, and yet you have no interest in trying to improve things to meet your vision?

 

A school can't be set up, it's a process, like life. It can be killed, but not brought at will.

Well I think that's nonsense - when does anything spontaneously arise? Leaps in artistic performance and style have guiding lights & impresarios who stimulate interest and push the boundaries. Quite often these people do not have the technical adeptness themselves, but they have a vision which enables them to set up environments in which those that are capable of reaching the desired heights can flourish.

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Testify, brother, Testify!

 

Well ...

 

As one who was introduced to the Gospel and the concertina sumultaneously in early childhood - at the Salvation Army, where else ;) - I'd like to meditate on the words of our "prophet" Misha for a moment.

There's a saying of Jesus: "The first shall be last and the last shall be first." In the beginning, the English concertina was intended to be exalted, to rival the classical violin and oboe. The glory of its appearance sometimes rivalled that of the lilies of the field.

And in the beginning there was also the German concertina, a rough instrument of lowly appearance and simple, diatonic capability.

And verily, the EC appeared in the hands of the angelic musician Regondi - but the German concertina dwelt with the blind country girl in Millais' painting.

 

But the German concertina was blessed with fruitfulness, and begat the Anglo-German concertina, and its seed soon covered the face of the country.

 

In the latter days, however, the earth brought forth many electric and electronic pestilences, which tempted musicians to neglect the ways and instruments of their fathers before them, and all was changed in the realm of the concertina. The exalted music was dominated by classical virtuosi and charismatic pop singers on discs of various sizes and colours, and the people bowed down and worshipped these discs.

 

Only a few remained faithful to the concertina, and they were cast upon their own devices, for the prophets had now all turned to the worship of the Discs, and their scriptures were The Charts. The Temples also had no longer a place for the concertina. And so those that had remained faithful to the concertina were obliged to devise a cult of simlicity, in which each Believer could commune with his instrument without the mediation of priests, prophets or lawgivers.

And so it came to pass that the prophecy was fulfilled, and the Anglo, through its very simplicity and humility, was exalted over the English in the hearts of the Concertinists.

 

There's probably an atheistic view of the concertina's place in the musical world, too. Many metaphors - one truth!

 

Cheers,

John

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A school can't be set up, it's a process, like life. It can be killed, but not brought at will.

Well I think that's nonsense - when does anything spontaneously arise? Leaps in artistic performance and style have guiding lights & impresarios who stimulate interest and push the boundaries. Quite often these people do not have the technical adeptness themselves, but they have a vision which enables them to set up environments in which those that are capable of reaching the desired heights can flourish.

 

Woody,

 

The term that comes to my mind when I read Misha's postings is "critical mass".

 

Just to take an example of one classical instrument: there are millions of violinists all over the world. There are tens of thousands of violin teachers. There are hundreds of composers who have written thousands of pieces of music for the violin, because there are so many violinists available to play it, and thousands of children take up the violin each year because there's so much opportunity to play it. And there are scores of luthiers building violins for all levels of player.

And this wide basis promotes the virtuosi who are the guiding lights of the young musicians. A virtuoso in NOT someone who does something unique. He is someone who does what lots of people do, but does it much better. Where do the virtuosi come from? There are so many violins and violin teachers that it's easy for a child to find out whether or not he or she has any talent for the hinstrument. And if they do, there are enough teachers who can take them up to their level of competence, whatever it is. So very little potential is wasted.

 

Then there's money. The violin has established itself so firmly in a style of music that is considered part of our European cultural heritage - and is therefore subsidised, and patronised by unmusical people because it's the "done thing" - that it pays to play the violin very well. So you can chuck your day job and use the freed-up time to become even better at the violin.

 

All this is not the work of some genius of an impressario. It is a tradition that has grown historically. The critical mass, once achieved, sets off a chain reaction: musicians get better, demand better instruments, instruments are improved, musicians see more potential in them, utilise it, want more, composers keep churning out virtuoso-fodder ... and all of this is possible only because there is a vast audience that is willing to pay for excellent compositions played excellently on excellent violins.

 

Let's face it: almost any young person who thinks he might like to become a violinist has the opportunity to do so. How many aspiring concertinists can fund a good teacher? And how many musical young people are even aware that there is such a thing as a concertina to aspire to?

 

The mass of the concertina is not critical. There is no chain reaction involving players, makers, composers, audiences and financial sponsors. The few, mostly amateur, players in their circles of aficionados can fall back on older instruments, and can find quite nice pieces to play without the help of contemporary composers.

 

But who needs nuclear bombs nowadays, anyway? ;)

 

Cheers,

John

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Testify, brother, Testify!

 

Well ...

 

As one who was introduced to the Gospel and the concertina sumultaneously in early childhood - at the Salvation Army, where else ;) - I'd like to meditate on the words of our "prophet" Misha for a moment.

There's a saying of Jesus: "The first shall be last and the last shall be first." In the beginning, the English concertina was intended to be exalted, to rival the classical violin and oboe. The glory of its appearance sometimes rivalled that of the lilies of the field.

And in the beginning there was also the German concertina, a rough instrument of lowly appearance and simple, diatonic capability.

And verily, the EC appeared in the hands of the angelic musician Regondi - but the German concertina dwelt with the blind country girl in Millais' painting.

 

But the German concertina was blessed with fruitfulness, and begat the Anglo-German concertina, and its seed soon covered the face of the country.

 

In the latter days, however, the earth brought forth many electric and electronic pestilences, which tempted musicians to neglect the ways and instruments of their fathers before them, and all was changed in the realm of the concertina. The exalted music was dominated by classical virtuosi and charismatic pop singers on discs of various sizes and colours, and the people bowed down and worshipped these discs.

 

Only a few remained faithful to the concertina, and they were cast upon their own devices, for the prophets had now all turned to the worship of the Discs, and their scriptures were The Charts. The Temples also had no longer a place for the concertina. And so those that had remained faithful to the concertina were obliged to devise a cult of simlicity, in which each Believer could commune with his instrument without the mediation of priests, prophets or lawgivers.

And so it came to pass that the prophecy was fulfilled, and the Anglo, through its very simplicity and humility, was exalted over the English in the hearts of the Concertinists.

 

There's probably an atheistic view of the concertina's place in the musical world, too. Many metaphors - one truth!

 

Cheers,

John

 

Great stuff John. I thoroughly enjoyed that. Rod

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Testify, brother, Testify!

 

Well ...

 

As one who was introduced to the Gospel and the concertina sumultaneously in early childhood - at the Salvation Army, where else ;) - I'd like to meditate on the words of our "prophet" Misha for a moment.

There's a saying of Jesus: "The first shall be last and the last shall be first." In the beginning, the English concertina was intended to be exalted, to rival the classical violin and oboe. The glory of its appearance sometimes rivalled that of the lilies of the field.

And in the beginning there was also the German concertina, a rough instrument of lowly appearance and simple, diatonic capability.

And verily, the EC appeared in the hands of the angelic musician Regondi - but the German concertina dwelt with the blind country girl in Millais' painting.

 

But the German concertina was blessed with fruitfulness, and begat the Anglo-German concertina, and its seed soon covered the face of the country.

 

In the latter days, however, the earth brought forth many electric and electronic pestilences, which tempted musicians to neglect the ways and instruments of their fathers before them, and all was changed in the realm of the concertina. The exalted music was dominated by classical virtuosi and charismatic pop singers on discs of various sizes and colours, and the people bowed down and worshipped these discs.

 

Only a few remained faithful to the concertina, and they were cast upon their own devices, for the prophets had now all turned to the worship of the Discs, and their scriptures were The Charts. The Temples also had no longer a place for the concertina. And so those that had remained faithful to the concertina were obliged to devise a cult of simlicity, in which each Believer could commune with his instrument without the mediation of priests, prophets or lawgivers.

And so it came to pass that the prophecy was fulfilled, and the Anglo, through its very simplicity and humility, was exalted over the English in the hearts of the Concertinists.

 

There's probably an atheistic view of the concertina's place in the musical world, too. Many metaphors - one truth!

 

Cheers,

John

well said Brother John.....

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It seems an issue you are passionate about. You seem to care a great deal about it, and yet you have no interest in trying to improve things to meet your vision?

 

Woody, all I can do in my spare time, I'm doing rigorously. What more can I do?

I like folk music, and up to my English adventure, I was playing Scottish, English, Irish, French and some Russian tunes on my numerous Diatonics. I failed to obtain Serenellini 2/5 row with 12 basses. If I had obtained it by now, I'd be playing Folk and be happy.

But English concertina naturally led me towards more advanced musical forms, and since I don't have time to practice my accordions at home, I am left to practice EC in my car during lunch breaks. I'm not doing so badly, after all. And my Ukulele playing is much better than my concertina, I'm more naturally gifted with strings (a surprise, really).

Am I setting up a school by example? Doubt it. Can I openly say that a sour apple is sour? Sure! Will it offend some people with low abilities and high self-esteem? It may.

Sorry about it, but puffing cheeks is the activity that sets me on fire. My child was assalted by a puffing cheek doctor, who wrote a squeel to CPS, accusing us of not feeding the child. And we came to find out why our child is so thin.

So no claiming to be artist without knowing how to hold a pencil for me, please.

 

A school can't be set up, it's a process, like life. It can be killed, but not brought at will.

Well I think that's nonsense - when does anything spontaneously arise? Leaps in artistic performance and style have guiding lights & impresarios who stimulate interest and push the boundaries. Quite often these people do not have the technical adeptness themselves, but they have a vision which enables them to set up environments in which those that are capable of reaching the desired heights can flourish.

I don't understand what's noncense. What you are saying is what I was saying, that school can't be set up at once - it's a process. I'm neither impressario, nor talented jem of a musician. I'm a spare time whistle blower. And wacky one at that.

Thanks for your thoughts though, I agree with them.

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A school can't be set up....
what I was saying, that school can't be set up at once...

Well if you had said that first time I would have agreed with you.

 

 

On the subject of critical mass I doubt that Romanian Pan Pipes or Theremin have large player numbers, but they have produced notable performers - whether or not posters on this forum would consider them to be virtuosi....

 

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=VPfnspONZ8Q

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Xn4TgYkqdi8

 

 

Back to the original post....

 

These Discussion Forums contain a wealth of valuable and fascinating detail and much intelligent exchange of opinion but I search in vain for any examples of truly competent virtuoso performance.

The Oxford English Dictionary defines a virtuoso as "a person highly skilled in music or another artistic pursuit" so I think if you are looking for virtuoso Concertina performers there are loads around, but perhaps Rod has chosen the wrong word for what he means.

 

The majority of what I hear only serves to perpetuate the generally held, but erroneous perception that the Concertina is not in fact a 'serious' musical instrument.

Depends on the company you keep. Since starting on the Concertina I've not met one person that's suggested to me that it's anything other than a serious instrument. The general response is very very positive.

 

 

My personal observation is that these kind of debates rarely seem to occur between high achievers in a field but are generally the territory of the more limited amateur & self-appointed authorities & critics.

 

Those that can - do

Those that can't do - teach

Those that can't do or teach - criticise

 

????

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Those that can - do

Those that can't do - teach

Those that can't do or teach - criticise

 

????

You need to listen to the Youtube clip where Misha compares the Morse and the Lachenal, you know...I'd put him in the first category myself. He's got a clear right to an opinion on the current state of the English concertina, and undoubtedly a better one than you or me in our capacities as Anglo and duet players respectively.

 

Would you count as one of those folkies I was accusing of complacency, do you think, Woody?

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Those that can - do

Those that can't do - teach

Those that can't do or teach - criticise

 

In theory no, in practice yes.

It also depends on what fits your personal perception of virtuoso.

People around me are very enthusiastic about my concertina.

I think it's time for either quietly wait for English International, or start collecting names of EC virtuoso and sharing the listings. Not just the names, but perhaps venues to obtain recordings or videos from, or addresses and dates (or info on where to obtain such info) about upcoming EC virtuoso performance and share the impression with others, who can't attend.

Let's begin to walk the walk then, those who haven't yet.

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The majority of what I hear only serves to perpetuate the generally held, but erroneous perception that the Concertina is not in fact a 'serious' musical instrument.

Depends on the company you keep. Since starting on the Concertina I've not met one person that's suggested to me that it's anything other than a serious instrument. The general response is very very positive.

 

I suspect the people you talk to are just very polite. I know plenty of people who wouldn't call it a serious instrument, though that doesn't necessarily mean that they don't like it.

 

It also depends on what is meant by a "serious instrument". If everybody is "allowed" their own definition of what a serious instrument is (and I don't seen any alternative) then I suspect their attitude depends on what other instrumental experience they have. For example, I might actually see it as just as serious an instrument as you on some objective (non-existent) scale... but I wouldn't call it a serious instrument because I have seen in the cello an example of how much scope there is to facilitate "serious musicality" - so much so that I simply can't put cello and concertina in the same category in this respect.

 

You (and other concertina players) may have a different experience to me - perhaps you don't play another instrument (in particular a "conventionally serious" one), or perhaps you do but don't see in it any fundamental difference to the concertina. That's fine... but...

 

... you can't just claim that somebody who holds a different opinion to you (due to their different experience) is _wrong_ ("erroneous perception" in the OP).

 

In some cases those who don't think the concertina is "serious" _will_ be ignorant. However, in other cases they will have that opinion because, consiously or not, they have made a comparison with other instruments and seen that the concertina simply doesn't stand up very well. I gave some of these comparisons in my first post, and nobody has discussed them subsequently. In my opinion they explain perfectly clearly why the concertina isn't (and never will be) seen on a par with, for example, the violin and piano. Show me why those comparisons are wrong/irrelevant and perhaps I'll reconsider...

 

In addition, I wasn't critisizing the concertina in my earlier post - just comparing. I said that other instruments are (in many cases) better in certain qualities, not that the concertina is bad. On the contrary, I said it's a fun instrument (meaning that in a complementary way), and the qualities that make it loose out on the "serious" front can be seen as advantages in some contexts.

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I think a discussion of the 'seriousness' of the english concertina is kind of pointless. The potential for musical expression on any instrument is greater than most people realize and greater than most players ever make use of. I remember reading that the great cellist Pablo Casals said that the bandoneon was capable of playing ANY kind of music. He had great respect for the expressiveness of the bandoneon which seems to me would have the same limitations as any other bellows driven free reed instrument. So there is another opinion.

 

According to the musician/neuroscientist Daniel Levitin who wrote 'This is Your Brain On Music' a virtuoso is someone who has put in 10,000 hours of practice on their instrument.

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According to the musician/neuroscientist Daniel Levitin who wrote 'This is Your Brain On Music' a virtuoso is someone who has put in 10,000 hours of practice on their instrument.

I thought it was 20,000 by the age of 25 :D

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In some cases those who don't think the concertina is "serious" _will_ be ignorant. However, in other cases they will have that opinion because, consiously or not, they have made a comparison with other instruments and seen that the concertina simply doesn't stand up very well. I gave some of these comparisons in my first post, and nobody has discussed them subsequently. In my opinion they explain perfectly clearly why the concertina isn't (and never will be) seen on a par with, for example, the violin and piano. Show me why those comparisons are wrong/irrelevant and perhaps I'll reconsider...

 

As far as an instrument with solo potential in the classical context, I'd agree with you. But I don't think that should be the sole criteria for a "serious" instrument. My primary instrument is trombone. The trombone, in the orchestral world, is generally not thought of on the same level as violin, piano, flute, or even trumpet in the realm of solo performance. The tuba is probably thought of as being even less facile in this realm. There are a few people who do it , but there's no comparison (both in terms of performers and repertoire) when looked at in the context of other more "soloistic" instruments. Regardless, no one who isn't completely ignorant on the subject would view the trombone as a non-serious instrument. It has it's place - typically in the full orchestral setting, where (quoting Berlioz again), "the trombones can chant like a choir of priests, threaten, utter gloomy sighs, a mournful lament, or a bright hymn of glory." No one would argue that it's the ideal instrument for solo playing, but that's completely beside the point.

 

As for the criteria you gave at the beginning, I don't think they are entirely fair. Yes, a cello is quite beautiful in the right hands. Beauty, however, is not the only thing expressed by classical music. Melancholy, frivolity, innocence, despair, madness, ugliness, arrogance, and any number of other emotions are part of the human experience, and therefore reflected in classical music. The reason that the orchestra is so expansive is that every instrument is a new color to use in creating the composer's vision. I believe that the concertina's tone could be quite useful in establishing some of these moods - perhaps doubling a violin or cello to on a lyrical line to give it beauty with a bit of an edge, for example. Few composers will use it, however, because composers want to get their works performed, and lack any knowledge about the instrument.

 

As far as technical proficiency - there are plenty of instruments less naturally technically proficient than a concertina, but that certainly doesn't disqualify them from being a "serious" instrument. It's all about finding an instrument's niche.

 

It seems like the concertina never really found it's place, beyond being a flashy novelty. It was designed as an instrument for amateurs, but I don't think the original concept needs to bind it (obviously, the saxophone found a much different niche than originally intended). The concertina has a unique voice that could be very useful in a variety of contexts, but it hasn't found it's place in the modern classical music world. If there is anything original about the concertina at all, than I am unwilling to accept that it is a redundant entry in the family of classical instruments. If the Piazzolla could give classical legitimacy (for lack of a better term) to the bandoneon, someone else could do the same for the concertina. But it takes the rare combination of the inspired playing of an excellent composition in a way that gets people's attention.

 

That being said, I heartily echo the sentiments of Misha and Dirge. I dislike hearing about how you just "can't do" something on a concertina. Naturally, there are physical limits to what any instrument can do, but these limits are pretty far beyond what I hear people claim. It's fine if a player says, "I can't do that on this instrument." There's nothing wrong with that - what I can't do on a concertina far outweighs what I can. But I'm unwilling to claim that no one can do the things I can't.

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As far as an instrument with solo potential in the classical context, I'd agree with you. But I don't think that should be the sole criteria for a "serious" instrument.

Well said, the whole post. I agree. You can't make a laundry list of what properties an instrument has or doesn't have, add it up and rank the instrument's "seriousness." By such a ranking system, the pipe organ would have to be considered far too limited for serious music, and the smaller ones should be considered no more than toys.

Edited by Boney
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Those that can - do

Those that can't do - teach

Those that can't do or teach - criticise

 

????

Hee hee hee - note to self - "must buy bigger spoon!"

 

You need to listen to the Youtube clip where Misha compares the Morse and the Lachenal, you know...I'd put him in the first category myself. He's got a clear right to an opinion on the current state of the English concertina, and undoubtedly a better one than you or me in our capacities as Anglo and duet players respectively.

I'm sure he'll be delighted that you've elevated him to the echelons of top performers to which I was referring. I don't think I said he didn't have a right to an opinion & in fact with his post #118 of this thread I find myself in the unusual position of agreeing with every word he said.

 

Would you count as one of those folkies I was accusing of complacency, do you think, Woody?

Hee hee hee - thanks David for resurrecting one of the great chestnuts of world forums - "You don't appear to agree with me so you must be complacent/naive/ill-informed/..." - though I think you're making assumptions about my opinion that are not actually covered in my posts...

 

...thanks also to Danny for the one I've only seen here - i.e. "Your experiences don't match mine so people are obviously being polite to you" - note the alternative interpretation "People seem to seek out opportunities to be impolite to me" is rarely employed :rolleyes: ;)

 

... you can't just claim that somebody who holds a different opinion to you (due to their different experience) is _wrong_ ("erroneous perception" in the OP).

Of course you can - it happens on forums all the time - but I don't believe that's what I was saying

Edited by Woody
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As far as an instrument with solo potential in the classical context, I'd agree with you. But I don't think that should be the sole criteria for a "serious" instrument...

 

Thanks for the interesting and thought-provoking reply...

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I feel that what is in order here is a true definition of virtuosity. I'm sure many of you can come up with a very good definition. To me, it would include brilliant technique, a large amt. of expression and emotion and musical intelligence regarding interpretation. i truly don't think the technique takes first place. There are artists out there that fit this definition whether they play irish trad or not.

Their subtle takes on the basic tune, the pure history feel when you listen to even what at first seems simple style of Mary M. and Jackie Mc., well. Attend a Noel H. class and hear the free form just flowing out of him as he plays for the class and the picking apart of a tune and putting it back together; you sit in the presence of musical genius.

Addressing directly you mr. Ratface/Danny: What do you think you are saying? Music affects me emotionally if it is truly played well. whether on piano, cello, or concertina. When you, Danny, play Micheal Turners waltz on utube my eyes start to tear and your mr. rat does the same.

Emotion. Rhythm. Interpretation. Last technical prowess. There. i got it out. w.

.a virtuoso was, originally, a highly accomplished musician, but by the nineteenth century the term had become restricted to performers, both vocal and instrumental, whose technical accomplishments were so pronounced as to dazzle the public."

The defining element of virtuosity is the performance ability of the musician in question, who is capable of displaying feats of skill well above the average performer. Musicians focused on virtuosity are commonly criticized for overlooking substance and emotion in favor of raw technical prowess. Despite the mechanical aspects of virtuosity, many virtuosi successfully avoid such labels, focusing simultaneously on other musical aspects while writing and performing music.

 

Or from Webster

1: an experimenter or investigator especially in the arts and sciences : savant

2: one skilled in or having a taste for the fine arts

3: one who excels in the technique of an art; especially : a highly skilled musical performer (as on the violin)

4: a person who has great skill at some endeavor <a computer virtuoso> <a virtuoso at public relations>

 

A genius is a person of great intelligence, who shows an exceptional natural capacity of intellect, especially as shown in creative and original work. Geniuses - or genii (see Etymology) - always show strong individuality and imagination, and are not only intelligent, but unique and innovative.

 

We started bringing names, and none of those names fit the above requirements, unless we are easily amused, probably due to our incomplete exposition.

You want to see true virtuoso?

Here they are:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSM2AWJeAkA...feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inLlNdjKgTQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVSgx7gKc_k...feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ve_EhkMVbFY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnNG9SBwU7Y...feature=related including Hebrew joke (the times!)

Anyone on concerrtina up to the level? Both artistic and technical?

Let's find them.

May be a sub-topic "Concertina Virtuosi" should be created.

 

Tamara Volskaia ( Domra ) Saint-Saens Rondo Capricioso is out of this world. Virtuosity with a dollop of genius on top. Many thanks for making it available for me to enjoy. Rod

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