Performance

[Rod]

Off on a tangent again....... I am coming to the slightly disturbing conclusion that I derive far greater pleasure from playing my Concertina to myself within the very modest limits of my own capability than listening to the music of those who are undoubtedly far more competent playing theirs. Is it simply because I have chosen the tune ?

[allan atlas]

ROD: if and when the day comes when you find listening to music -- any kind of music -- more enjoyable and satisfying than MAKING music -- any kind of music -- it's time to hang up the button boards................to be musically pro-active is far better than being passive. . . . . .and while the two things obviously feed one another to a certain extent, there is still nothing like making music yourself or with others. . . . . .it is the kind of thing people live for............allan

[Rod]

ROD: if and when the day comes when you find listening to music -- any kind of music -- more enjoyable and satisfying than MAKING music -- any kind of music -- it's time to hang up the button boards................to be musically pro-active is far better than being passive. . . . . .and while the two things obviously feed one another to a certain extent, there is still nothing like making music yourself or with others. . . . . .it is the kind of thing people live for............allan

Allan, How right you are. Rod

[Mark Evans]

ROD: if and when the day comes when you find listening to music -- any kind of music -- more enjoyable and satisfying than MAKING music -- any kind of music -- it's time to hang up the button boards................to be musically pro-active is far better than being passive. . . . . .and while the two things obviously feed one another to a certain extent, there is still nothing like making music yourself or with others. . . . . .it is the kind of thing people live for............allan

Allan, How right you are. Rod

 

Certainly, one who is so inclined/cursed must make music for the instinct is too strong ignore, but listening is equally imparitive. I need to hear and see others communicating. Enjoying a recording is a delight no doubt, but the act of being in the presence of a performer sharing their art with an audience is an ancient and important ritual. Some of my most epiphanal moments have been as an audience member reacting and sending back my energy to the performer. It's also not a bad source of inspritaion.

 

Listening can be purgatory as was required attendance at the Wednesday afternoon student recitals back in me college days. The principle irritant; a would be virtuoso who signed up every week with another installment of Hindemith's clarinet concerto . Even those weekly assults finally yeilded an unexpected turn when a hefty lad walked out behind the clarinet terrorist stark raving naked except for a pair of red sneakers and slowly sauntered across the stage. A stunned silence was followed by an enthusiatic ovation with the added benefit of a few weeks respite from Hindemith.

Edited July 15, 2008 by Mark Evans

[m3838]

How can we expect to attract more players to this instrument if we cannot count on the members of its own forum to promote it? Calling it a less-than-serious instrument does no service to the future of the concertina, and feeds into the negative stereotypes of concertinas.

 

I disagree with you, Frank.

Puffing cheeks for no reason is not the best attraction to the instrument. You deliver first, then we can verbalize just how good and versatile concertina is. I heard so much praising of imaginary versatility, but so little of the proof.

In such a case one may make fun of oneself, present instrument as fun and not very serious, easy to play, good company... Yea, there's this potential, but so far we are just a lively bunch, nothing serious. That works, as I see, for most Concertina enthusiasts.

And it's truth, not a PR campagne.

You think such attitude is a downright denigrading, because your tasts is fully satisfied with the examples or Irish playing you have access to.

But again, main concern of this discussion is not AC in Irish tradition, it's doing just fine.

It's the English, the high brow one, designed for virtuosity, that lost it's status and hasn't yet regained it's reputation as a serious instrument.

[Mark Evans]

It's the English, the high brow one, designed for virtuosity, that lost it's status and hasn't yet regained it's reputation as a serious instrument.

 

But I don't want it to be a serious instrument! I'd have to stop drinking while playing it. So what if the grey old lady has fallen on hard times....she still enjoys a good nosh and pint to wash it down wid!

Edited July 15, 2008 by Mark Evans

[Alan Day]

How can we expect to attract more players to this instrument if we cannot count on the members of its own forum to promote it? Calling it a less-than-serious instrument does no service to the future of the concertina, and feeds into the negative stereotypes of concertinas.

 

I disagree with you, Frank.

Puffing cheeks for no reason is not the best attraction to the instrument. You deliver first, then we can verbalize just how good and versatile concertina is. I heard so much praising of imaginary versatility, but so little of the proof.

In such a case one may make fun of oneself, present instrument as fun and not very serious, easy to play, good company... Yea, there's this potential, but so far we are just a lively bunch, nothing serious. That works, as I see, for most Concertina enthusiasts.

And it's truth, not a PR campagne.

You think such attitude is a downright denigrading, because your tasts is fully satisfied with the examples or Irish playing you have access to.

But again, main concern of this discussion is not AC in Irish tradition, it's doing just fine.

It's the English, the high brow one, designed for virtuosity, that lost it's status and hasn't yet regained it's reputation as a serious instrument.

Misha I had a playful swipe at you in my last post,but being serious now ,I agree that the English System concertina playing Irish music is not as strong as the Anglo mainly because the Anglo has become the tradition for Irish music playing. For other types of music however I have to disagree with you, there are players out there who are to a very high standard and I cannot expect that you would have heard the vast amount of playing that I have heard and of the different types of music played on the EC. The comparisons between the old pre war and modern players will be a question of taste and will form an interesting debate. You have already voiced your opinion that early players were far superior to modern and your comments will be of future interest.. The original discussion point, from one new to the concertina world,deserves all the critisism that has been thrown at it,but it is a posting out of ignorance for what is being achieved by modern players and what has been achieved in the past.

I have heard the argument before " You will never achieve anything on a concertina,it is only a toy". It is absolute rubbish and many players on this site are practicing for hours daily to prove these people wrong.

Al

[m3838]

Misha I had a playful swipe at you in my last post

 

And there I was composing a detailed answer

but it is a posting out of ignorance for what is being achieved by modern players and what has been achieved in the past.

I have heard the argument before " You will never achieve anything on a concertina,it is only a toy". It is absolute rubbish and many players on this site are practicing for hours daily to prove these people wrong.

Al

It could well be as you say, as people who want to pick up a Bandoneon, but not knowing where to look, judge by Youtube clips, and get one-sided view from many of youtube posters, who are mediocre players.

I'm seriously looking forward to that CD compilation of yours, but frankly, it'll take a lot to convince me, after listening to so many Bayan players. It takes more than hours of practice, it takes established school. The reason I say it, is because established school of playing, been rigid and all that, in it's turn gives guidelines to builders, that so far are on their own and have to invent the wheel. A school expects certain qualities from the sound and action, reed response and volume. Some instruments been accepted by the school send clear message to the rest. Without it you don't have uniformity in sound, range and action, can't teach students, can't write music for the instrument. If standards are absent,here we make 30 button instrument,there we make 35 button, and we are unsure of how even to hold it.

[Alan Day]

Misha I had a playful swipe at you in my last post

 

And there I was composing a detailed answer

but it is a posting out of ignorance for what is being achieved by modern players and what has been achieved in the past.

I have heard the argument before " You will never achieve anything on a concertina,it is only a toy". It is absolute rubbish and many players on this site are practicing for hours daily to prove these people wrong.

Al

It could well be as you say, as people who want to pick up a Bandoneon, but not knowing where to look, judge by Youtube clips, and get one-sided view from many of youtube posters, who are mediocre players.

I'm seriously looking forward to that CD compilation of yours, but frankly, it'll take a lot to convince me, after listening to so many Bayan players. It takes more than hours of practice, it takes established school. The reason I say it, is because established school of playing, been rigid and all that, in it's turn gives guidelines to builders, that so far are on their own and have to invent the wheel. A school expects certain qualities from the sound and action, reed response and volume. Some instruments been accepted by the school send clear message to the rest. Without it you don't have uniformity in sound, range and action, can't teach students, can't write music for the instrument. If standards are absent,here we make 30 button instrument,there we make 35 button, and we are unsure of how even to hold it.

Misha when I entered upon this approx two year compilation tunnel on the EC, my thoughts were of a similar nature to yours.Most EC players I listened to , even those who were being looked up to as leaders of the instrument played one note at a time,were excellent at that style, but where would I find the variety?

It was firstly the old archives that made me sit up and take notice. OK they are mostly accompanied by piano. but most had that type of accompaniment in those days, but if you listen to the wonderful playing techniques these old players could achieve then I ignore the piano, I just listen to what the concertina player is doing. Then came recordings of players like Tommy Elliott, John Nixon, Alf Edwards (earlier recordings) and the simple style of Tom Jukes and the amazing Harry Dunn,apart from Alf ,players I had never heard of. I then started to change my mind about the English. I was not aware you could play it like this. It is much more versatile than I imagined ,I now really like listening to the instrument .The Bands have really got me excited. I then started to receive the modern players recordings,they were different Yes, but to a greater standard of playing than I ever expected.

I hope you enjoy at least some of it Misha, if not you can swipe me one back.

Al

[allan atlas]

MARK: i didn't equate one with good and the other with evil. . . . .obviously, it's important that one listens. . . . .

 

but in the end, it's the music that one makes him or herself that lifts the soul (pardon the purple prose). . . . .let me put it this way: given the choice between a stack of CDs and the concertina on the proverbial desert island, i'd take the concertina................

 

 

and with what music would i while away the hours . . . . .for me it would be the bach unaccompanied violin music. . . . .there's enough there to keep one going for years. . . . . .as for lifting the soul: it's like communicating with the angels..........

 

i'm going to watch the All-Star game. . . . .go nationals....................allan

Edited July 15, 2008 by allan atlas

[Pete Dunk]

your tasts is fully satisfied with the examples or Irish playing you have access to.

 

Odd thing that. I was recently inspired by the playing of Frank Edgley to such an extent I had to go off and learn the tune he was playing. I heard this tune on Anglo International which you have said elsewhere on this forum has a few good examples of Irish tunes on it and little else of any merit.

 

The tune in question is called Archie's Fancy and was written by Northumbrian piper Billy Pigg. Now there might be some intermingling of playing styles between the far north east of England (Northumbria) and the south east Borders region of Scotland and perhaps Mr Edgley uses one or two embellishments favoured by British fiddle players but it is quite unlike ITM, just as it differs from other regional styles across England, Wales and Ireland.

 

If you want to hear fast, furious, stylish and punchy English concertina playing that has no connection with the Irish style seek out any recordings of Alistair Anderson; but my betting is that to your untutored ear it will be same old, same old ...

[m3838]

Odd thing that. I was recently inspired by the playing of Frank Edgley

 

I like Frank's playing too. I'm not sure though what you are discussing here.

Are you talking about Irish/English/Scottish minutae and accusing me of not been well versed in it? Of course I'm not, Why should I be? May be you also are better versed in Russian Traditional music and the subtle differences between the regions than me, so what?

So your ear is tutored by what tutor? And who tutored your tutor, who tutored your tutored ear?

Or are you saying that just because you liked Frank's playing his Anglo concertina so much, all concertinas must do well? I'm not concerned with Anglo, it's doing OK. Not as well as fiddle or diatonic accordion, but still pretty good. My concern is the English concertina playing, and I have no burning desire to listen to fast and uplifting folk music on EC, I got enough of that on AC. I'd like to hear some Rostropovich on EC, not Frank Edgley, however good for what he does he is.

Why?

Because EC was designed with this in mind.

Just out of curiousity I'd like to know if the design was good.

That's all.

[Dirge]

I am sure the concertina has huge, untapped potential, particularly the duet, but also the English. I strongly refute any suggestions that it is somehow sub-standard; on the contrary it has some amazing features.

 

The world lost interest in the concertina; the folk world rediscovered it and claimed it. Now, if you come across someone playing a concertina they will probably be playing folk music. It may be just a tune and refrain bare, or with a backing of improvised chords, or even a bare tune with some superbly subtle twitters and fidgets, but it is straight forward stuff. You don't need Glenn Gould to get the best out of Shepherds Hey, and I hope you'll agree that that is part of its charm, at that. This is not an attack on folk music, just on the idea that folk is, somehow, enough. But if you go hunting for concertina music you will almost certainly stumble upon folk.

 

It seems to me that here we have folk musicians assuring people of more Catholic tastes that the standard of play of English and duet concertinas is nothing to complain about, because, after all, look at all the marvelous folk music being played. Well, I think the word you are looking for, ladies and gentlemen, is 'complacent'.

 

A friend told me a long tale about Eric Clapton which is irrelevant, but he (my friend) idolised EC because "Well, at the time, he was amazing. Every man and his dog down the local pub plays like Clapton NOW, but then...wow!". The concertina needs its own 'Eric Clapton' to lead the rest of us up to the higher pastures.

 

Misha and I have at least lifted our heads enough to SEE that there are some green fields higher up, even if we are struggling to find the way.

 

(Misha, we're prophets. Can I yell 'Prepare ye the way of the Lord' a few times without giving offence, Captain Al?)

[m3838]

Misha, we're prophets.

 

Yes!

We are!

I just have to learn to puff my cheeks like Luis Armstrong.

What, you say, it takes? 20 years of playing Horn???

Nah, can't do that, the Horn is substandard instrument!

Those higher pastures, M-m, Ah'm tellin' ya.

I saw them pastures on the picture.

[Dirge]

Misha, we're prophets.

 

Yes!

We are!

I just have to learn to puff my cheeks like Luis Armstrong.

What, you say, it takes? 20 years of playing Horn???

Nah, can't do that, the Horn is substandard instrument!

Those higher pastures, M-m, Ah'm tellin' ya.

I saw them pastures on the picture.

 

Testify, brother, Testify!

[Woody]

It takes more than hours of practice, it takes established school. The reason I say it, is because established school of playing, been rigid and all that, in it's turn gives guidelines to builders, that so far are on their own and have to invent the wheel. A school expects certain qualities from the sound and action, reed response and volume. Some instruments been accepted by the school send clear message to the rest. Without it you don't have uniformity in sound, range and action, can't teach students, can't write music for the instrument.

Then why don't you set one up and show us what you're talking about?

[Randall Cayford]

If you want to hear fast, furious, stylish and punchy English concertina playing that has no connection with the Irish style seek out any recordings of Alistair Anderson;

I have sought but without any luck. Are there any recordings of Alistair Anderson available? Everything by him seems to only be on very long out-of-print vinyl.

[Theo]

I have sought but without any luck. Are there any recordings of Alistair Anderson available? Everything by him seems to only be on very long out-of-print vinyl.

 

You could try Roots 2 Music and search for Alistair Anderson, you should find 3 titles available