Performance

[m3838]

I find this a load of arrogant codswallop.

 

If I were you, I'd stay away from such hacking epithets, based on very poorly understood piece of text you are replying to.

 

Many people seem to equate virtuosity with playing very fast. It's not. Playing very fast is simply flashiness.

Who exactly? It seems to me nobody does, or ever did, except for stupid Russian Bayan players with hairdo, but that was only in the 60s.

 

I suspect that there the limitation on how fast you can play the Anglo Concertina is not in the players' fingers, but in the instrument itself.

If so, it means cheap piano is faster than expencive concertina, and justifies concertina been not considered as seriously, as piano, which proves the point, made above.

A virtuoso is not only able to play fast, when needed, but also expresses feelings on deeper level, than anybody else. For such an expression he needs tools. The more tools a virtuoso has, the more complex his music becomes. Part of his technique is passed to students, further elevating accepted level of performance, to the point, where students nowadays, play more difficult pieces, on more advanced level of craftsmanship, then virtuosos of the past. It has not been the case with English concertina yet. It's technique seems to decline, while Anglo Concertina Technique has risen to higher standards. Still, compared to other instruments, AC is not up to level yet. But given the large number of very talented young musicians, it soon be there. I give it some 20 years. EC will largely remain amateur's instrument, just as it was advertized in the beginning. Brilliant design, totally successful.

 

Another thing is the discussion that I object to is the underlying assumption that if an instrument is not used in the classical orchestra it can't be a serious instrument.

Such fullishness could not possibly has been expressed.

It was only stated, that musical instrument exist for sole purpose of making music. Music must be expressive. There are tools for expressiveness, mainly bending pitch, applying different volume, and varying volume between the tones.

The less tools you have, the less you can express. Orchestra has not even entered the discussion.

Your points are correct. within the limitaiton of the instrument, there are enormous possibilities. But so far Alister Anderson's rendition of Telemann on English Concertina can't be compared to same music played on Cello by some virtuoso.

Been bigger fish in smaller pond doesn't make it to the Olympus.

[Dirge]

Good thought provoking stuff, all this.

[Boney]

Part of the problem here is that classical and traditional players use very different methods to add interest and complexity to the music. Classical music uses (among other things) advanced harmony, polyphony, multiple keys and time signatures, and longer and more complex musical themes.

 

Traditional music [uses] subtle rhythmic variations and pulses, physical "tricks" such as taps and rolls and slides and barks and "twiddles" added at the player's discretion.

I think that you are being inconsistent here. You compare/confuse the *type* of music with the *performance* of music. By your omission it seems that classical musicians don't play with any sort of expression and that traditional music has no advanced harmony, polyphony...

I'm sorry, you'll have to read between the lines a bit here. This topic could fill a book. And please don't turn what I was saying into a black and white statement -- I specifically stated those were illustrative examples and generalities, and noted there are exceptions.

 

You are right, I am talking about both the type of music and the performance, and I feel they are intertwined and influence each other.

 

For a good example of what I mean by "physical tricks," think of the kinds of "barks" and "laughing" sounds a Klezmer clarinet player gets...that is just not part of the classical world.

 

My point remains -- no matter how many overlaps or exceptions there are, they remain exceptions -- a Bach fugue has a very different approach to music than a village dance tune does. The performance techniques, venues, sound and tone preferences, clothing choices, and almost everything related to the music is colored by that basic difference.

 

I could just distill what I was saying to the example that ended my earlier post: what the classical music world calls a "virtuoso" has nothing to do with what makes people shake their butts, so if you're throwing a down-home dance party, Heifetz won't do you any good. So what qualities do these "virtuosos" lack that many "lowly" traditional musicians have?

 

Or you could say: Put a top traditional musician in a symphony -- what will they have trouble doing? And put a top classical player in a rootsy traditional dance band -- what will they not do well? The answer to those questions is the essence of the difference of the musical approaches.

 

Is that a little clearer?

[m3838]

"What more do the world's leading concertina players have to do before you describe any of them as a virtuoso?".

It's a very good question, that doesn't have any answer. What would you consider a "tasty" food?

However, continuing with food analogy, there is a "tasty" hotdog, and all we talk about is that. And there is also tasty French Onion soup, but those eating hotdogs may not be aware of that or able to perceive onion soup as food.

Not to denigrade hotdogs, culinary technique needed to make just acceptable French Onion soup is more advanced, than one needed for stupendous hotdog.

And my interest in this discussion is English Concertina. English system is designed for cooking French onion soups, but commonly is used for making very poor hotdogs.

Who would ever take such culinary tool seriously? What's the point of reading aged newspapers, where they praise some EC virtuoso, when all we can see is above averatge hotdog at best?

[Dirge]

"What more do the world's leading concertina players have to do before you describe any of them as a virtuoso?".

It's a very good question, that doesn't have any answer. What would you consider a "tasty" food?

However, continuing with food analogy, there is a "tasty" hotdog, and all we talk about is that. And there is also tasty French Onion soup, but those eating hotdogs may not be aware of that or able to perceive onion soup as food.

Not to denigrade hotdogs, culinary technique needed to make just acceptable French Onion soup is more advanced, than one needed for stupendous hotdog.

And my interest in this discussion is English Concertina. English system is designed for cooking French onion soups, but commonly is used for making very poor hotdogs.

Who would ever take such culinary tool seriously? What's the point of reading aged newspapers, where they praise some EC virtuoso, when all we can see is above averatge hotdog at best?

To answer the included quote, for starters they have to play so well that you do not find yourself making any allowances for the instrument's limitations, that's unusual in the concertina world at the moment I think. And, although I really am not sure about Anglos, if, as Misha does, you apply the question specifically to the English concertina, I agree with him thoroughly, and would beg to include duets in the statement too. The goals English and duet players set themselves seem to be woefully low, very often, and that, I believe, is because there is no one blazing a trail.

[m3838]

The goals English and duet players set themselves seem to be woefully low, very often, and that, I believe, is because there is no one blazing a trail.

 

Spectacularly correct.

Ironically, it's one of the reason I stick with EC, in hopes to be perceived a better player, than I am. Little trick, that does me good. I spent 5 years studying bayan, only to find that I will never ever achieve the level, that I accept of myself.

I wasn't a bad bayan player, btw, but it just didn't cut it, you know what I mean?

The trail left by others, is so bright, I would always look like a gray speck of dirt in it. Why draw ironic smyles? With the EC I have novelty element, I appreciate that.

When people say: "Wow, look what Misha can do with that little funny "consperctina" of his", it's my reward.

But when I get frustrated with my inability to extract sound I want, I'd like to listen to a vitruoso, now that's problematic. But as far as I have Rostropovich, Heyfetz and Gould, I'm covered.

I agree that Folk music lives by it's own rules. Involvement, rhythm, get-togetherness, danceability, wall of sound - is more important in Folk, than in "serious" music. I think Concertina is doing very well in Folk circles, where there is no such thing as "serious" instrument. How serious a Digeridoo is?

[Alan Day]

I find the discussion on EC players interesting because it was said to me before I started English International that I was on a loser, that the quality of current players has made no advances and almost gone backwards in comparison to the early players,unlike the Anglo that has advanced. Certainly the early players have a wonderful technique and are truly impressive Grergori Matusewitch, Raphael and Harry Dunn will meet any of the virtuoso requirements that have been mentioned,but alternativly to mention a few Allan Atlas,Robert Harbron, Danny Chapman,Pauline de Snoo, the unusual style of Rainer Submilch and finally Danny Chapman well and truly hold there own.

Al

[Rod]

I am pleased, ( but take no personal credit for the fact ) that my simple opening message on this topic has generated such lively, entertaining and informative discussion from the rest of you.

 

It need never end !!

[m3838]

I find the discussion on EC players interesting because it was said to me before I started English International that I was on a loser, that the quality of current players has made no advances and almost gone backwards in comparison to the early players,unlike the Anglo that has advanced. Certainly the early players have a wonderful technique and are truly impressive Grergori Matusewitch, Raphael and Harry Dunn will meet any of the virtuoso requirements that have been mentioned,but alternativly to mention a few Allan Atlas,Robert Harbron, Danny Chapman,Pauline de Snoo, the unusual style of Rainer Submilch and finally Danny Chapman well and truly hold there own.

Al

Where can I hear Pauline's virtuosity? So far I saw some clips on Youtube, but mostly some strange pieces, very slow, single line melody, with piano backing. Far from what I call virtuosity, but her been a graduate from music school, she must have some other performances. Are there any clips on the Net. or does she have a CD?

Thanks.

[chris]

CHRIS: that's a word-for-word quote from somewhere. . . .don't remember where, though.......allan

 

Hi Allan

page 9 endnote 33

chris

[Nanette Hooker]

How serious a Digeridoo is?

 

William Barton, a didgeridoo player, is accepted in the classical music scene. Check out this webpage.

 

Nanette

[Frank Edgley]

How can we expect to attract more players to this instrument if we cannot count on the members of its own forum to promote it? Calling it a less-than-serious instrument does no service to the future of the concertina, and feeds into the negative stereotypes of concertinas.

[Alan Day]

How can we expect to attract more players to this instrument if we cannot count on the members of its own forum to promote it? Calling it a less-than-serious instrument does no service to the future of the concertina, and feeds into the negative stereotypes of concertinas.

I agree Frank and there is no evidence to support this negative approach.

Misha, Pauline and the other players I mentioned will be on English International available about the end of this Month.

It should create some lively discussion as this subject has.

Al

[John Wild]

but alternativly to mention a few Allan Atlas,Robert Harbron, Danny Chapman,Pauline de Snoo, the unusual style of Rainer Submilch and finally Danny Chapman well and truly hold there own.

Al

 

Danny is so good you had to name him twice!

[Alan Day]

but alternatively to mention a few Allan Atlas,Robert Harbron, Danny Chapman,Pauline de Snoo, the unusual style of Rainer Submilch and finally Danny Chapman well and truly hold there own.

Al

 

Danny is so good you had to name him twice!

Old age catcheth up

I did leave out Julliette and Wim so we could insert one of those,perhaps I shall leave it as it is.

Al

[Alan Day]

Misha I am trying to work out what you like to listen to and from your recent postings.

You do not like chords unless played by a Russian Piano Accordionist, providing he has not got long hair.

You do not like single note playing,especially when accompanied by a piano.

There is no player playing music on this site that you enjoy.

You do not like playing in a higher octave.

Please tell me what you do enjoy played on the concertina and I will send you a recording of it.

Al

[PeterT]

Please tell me what you do enjoy played on the concertina and I will send you a recording of it.

Al

I somehow doubt whether even your archive is that extensive, Alan.

 

Regards,

Peter.

[Tootler]

How can we expect to attract more players to this instrument if we cannot count on the members of its own forum to promote it? Calling it a less-than-serious instrument does no service to the future of the concertina, and feeds into the negative stereotypes of concertinas.

 

I agree wholheartedly. The kind of negativity that has sometimes been expressed in this thread does the cause of the concertina no good at all.

 

It was that, and the notion that somehow the concertina was not a "serious" instrument that really annoyed me. I admit I did come on a bit strong and for that I apologise.

 

I am also a recorder player and I have heard the same kind of thing all too often said about the recorder. "It's OK to let young children learn the recorder but only until they are old enough to learn a 'proper' instrument". The recorder is, in fact quite a limited instrument, but was fully accepted during the baroque era and is once again gaining similar acceptance and there are a number of virtuoso recorder players about, but it has taken time.

 

Every instrument is limited in some way and part of the skill of learning an instrument is learning to make the most of the strengths of the instrument. Maybe the best concertina players are still in the process of learning what these strengths truly are and how to make the most of them.

 

Incidentally I would add Alistair Anderson to the list some posted earlier - and not just because he has played some Telemann

 

Geoff