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I think this is a great thread. Could it become a sticky, or listed in the FAQ section in some way?

I was already thinking of putting a link into the Concertina FAQ; you're right, this is one of the must inspiring threads in years, since it's covering do's as well as don'ts.

 

Someone, I think it was David, said something about going to dances. This may be running before you can walk, but if ever you can get to play for dancers that is a most tremendous discipline. Much of this stuff we play is dance music, and watching dancers in front of you responding to the music you play both teaches you how to play for dance and gives a huge buzz - can't recommend it enough.

 

Chris

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Would it be a good idea for those of us going to Bradfield to try to arrange a meeting where we can talk more about chopping,

and different ways of playing a particular tune? Rather than leaving it to chance?

I only play ITM but Jody's comments about chording and harmonies made me aware

that there could be more to this than I thought....

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I'd not heard of "chopping" before either, but I agree that it makes sense to avoid it when playing the melody. When playing chords, it's a different matter. My left hand little finger is doing a lot of work playing the bass runs while the other fingers fill in the chords. But there's usually a lot more time in which to move the finger, so it's less of a problem.

 

When playing chords, you need to be able to move all your fingers at the same time (unless you're deliberately playing arpeggios). By the time I came to the concertina, I'd already learned how to do this on guitar, but when I was learning to play that each chord change was painfully slow as I moved each finger in turn to the next position. Eventually it fell into place and I was able to control all my fingers at once.

 

Another legacy from guitar, where chords are often written as little "window" diagrams representing the fingering on the fretboard, is a tendency to think of chords as fingering shapes rather than groups of notes. To me, a chord of "C" is represented by finger positions, rather than the notes C,E,G (I had to stop there to work out what the notes are). This is not entirely a good thing, as I'm sure my musicianship would be far better if I understood the musical structure of chords better. However, from a playing point of view, the shapes are interchangeable between my different instruments and it doesn't matter what they're called.

 

I think what I'm trying to say is that you should learn how chords are constructed so you can build the chords you need from the different notes. But it can also helpful to think of them as patterns as well, especially if you play different instruments in different keys. I can sometimes get muddled if I'm asked for a particular chord on my G/D box as the fingering is different from the C/G, but I can use the same fingering patterns on both instruments knowing that I'll be playing the appropriate chords for that key.

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If you play by ear, learn to read notation. If you can't read it well enough to play from, at least be able to get the tune into your head and then play it by ear or memory. You'll then be able to learn more tunes, and will have an aide memoire for the ones you've learned.

 

If you play from music, learn to play by ear. You'll free yourself from the music stand and piles of music, and won't spend the entire session trying to find the right page, only for the tune to change when you've found it. More importantly, you'll learn to find your way around your instrument without having to think where each note is, and you'll learn how to listen and respond to other musicians. You'll also have the capacity to improvise.

 

They're both important skills to have. Too many players take sides in the argument. I'm an ear player, but I regret not understanding notation better.

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Although we play the one instrument there is a huge difference between the Anglo and the English concertinas. There as is much difference between the two as between the button box and the piano accordion. The size and shape are the same, and the way of holding them, but the fingering is totally different. Much of what anybody says about fingering, or chopping, applies only to the one or the other. I often don't know to which instrument a comment would apply.

 

The difference between playing English music - suitable for Morris dancing - and ITM is also profound. Most Irish music is purely melodic, with only a passing chord thrown in as if by accident. Occasionally elite players like Tim Collins will play a left-hand accompaniment to he melody but that's rare, I think. Reels go so fast that I cannot imagine chopping at any point in the tune. I will do anything to avoid chopping. I gather that on the English concertina, on a slower piece, or playing English music, this is not so much of a problem.

 

The first thing a beginner should say is whether he plays Anglo or English (or both) and what kind of music he will be playing.

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If you play by ear, learn to read notation. If you can't read it well enough to play from, at least be able to get the tune into your head and then play it by ear or memory. You'll then be able to learn more tunes, and will have an aide memoire for the ones you've learned.

 

If you play from music, learn to play by ear. You'll free yourself from the music stand and piles of music, and won't spend the entire session trying to find the right page, only for the tune to change when you've found it. More importantly, you'll learn to find your way around your instrument without having to think where each note is, and you'll learn how to listen and respond to other musicians. You'll also have the capacity to improvise.

 

They're both important skills to have. Too many players take sides in the argument. I'm an ear player, but I regret not understanding notation better.

 

All of the above bears repetition. I'm a "reader" but want to improve as an "ear" player. I can memorise tunes, and so am not totally dependent on having the dots in front of me.

So ... if you want to develop your ear don't be afraid, at a session, of playing the little bits of melody that you can in a tune that's new to you (it may be just one note to start with) and leaving out the rest. Many folk tunes from many traditions have repeated sections - learn to listen out for them and play your little sequence of notes. Each time it comes round you may be able to add a little more, or just to play with a little more confidence. Perhaps you recognise a little run of notes, or perhaps you can play the first note in each bar - anything like this is useful. Build on this at every opportunity. It sounds as though some of the sessions that Chris Timson has described (with multiple repetitions of a tune) would be ideal for this.

All the best

Samantha

Edited by Samantha
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If you play by ear, learn to read notation. ........

If you play from music, learn to play by ear. ...........

They're both important skills to have. ..........

 

All of the above bears repetition. I'm a "reader" but want to improve as an "ear" player. I can memorise tunes, and so am not totally dependent on having the dots in front of me.

So ... if you want to develop your ear don't be afraid, at a session, of playing the little bits of melody that you can in a tune that's new to you (it may be just one note to start with) and leaving out the rest. Many folk tunes from many traditions have repeated sections - learn to listen out for them and play your little sequence of notes. Each time it comes round you may be able to add a little more, or just to play with a little more confidence. Perhaps you recognise a little run of notes, or perhaps you can play the first note in each bar - anything like this is useful. Build on this at every opportunity. It sounds as though some of the sessions that Chris Timson has described (with multiple repetitions of a tune) would be ideal for this.

All the best

Samantha

 

Howard & Samantha,

 

I very much agree with all the points you have made.

I would very strongly recommend that beginners on the concertina start on the road to becoming proficient at both ear playing and sight reading, from the moment they first pick up a concertina. Both methods have a lot of advantages.

 

As I said in a previous post, 'Old habits die hard'.

It is so easy to either get dependant on one system or the other and ideally, both should be learned / taught together. Perhaps teachers might take some time to consider whether their own methods do enough to really integrate both elements.

 

Over the last 30 years, I have put a great deal of effort into trying to relate the 'mysterious tadpoles' and later, abc notation to the notes played, so many times now that I have lost count. Frankly, I have finally given up on it. This will sound crazy, but if I want to know which note I am playing on the box, I need to start at one of the few reference points I know, like where the Gs and Ds are, and 'count up' the notes till I get to the one I require....... after 30 years, I would call that illiterate. It is a total mental block.

 

I do seriously wonder if there is some real condition such as 'music notation dyslexia'. ........discuss!

 

After 30 years playing the anglo, I am very much aware that there is something new to learn every time I pick up the box, or get in the company of other players and this is a never ending delight to me. After so many years 'banging my head against a brick wall' I am blissfully content now to settle for this sort of learning and reluctantly accept the limitations of being musically illiterate.

 

" I learned to read music ... it's easy" I hear folks say ...... So it may be for you!

 

Maybe the dyslexia idea is just a 'cop out' for lack of discipline & application or laziness & impatience (and the like) on my part, but it certainly does not feel like that to me. Short, perhaps of someone teaching me music under deep hypnosis, I fear I am a lost cause.

I suspect there will be many others out there in the same boat as me, and an equal number of sight readers who have similar problems playing by ear.

 

I cheat a lot by playing midi/abc/nwc files on the computer (such a handy tool) and can learn the bare bones of a new tune. I am then free to interpret / adapt / modify / arrange as my fancy takes me. I have no doubt that the end result is often musically impure, unconventional or approximate, but the one thing that it will be, is my expression of that piece of music.

 

I do get most frustrated trying to teach others or explain what I am playing since, in musical terms, I don't really know myself. All I know is what the 'sound and rhythmic structure' is like and, often after quite a bit of self analysis, roughly how I achieve it in practice ..... Such vague descriptions are certainly not the best way to get something across to a beginner.

 

Being able to read music would solve my problem of remembering how tunes go. It would be bliss to be able to read crib sheets of the first couple or three bars of a tune.

 

So, if you are just starting out on the concertina, and 30 years on, wish to be free of the same frustrations and limitations that I experience, WORK HARD AT BOTH !

 

Dave

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Oh man, I'm with you Dave. Musical Dyslexia is me. As per some advice to incorporate chords, I went on-line to look up how to construct them. I fell asleep reading the explanation and got hopelessly lost and disinterested with all the BIG words! Finally I went back to Bertram Levy's tutor and got real.

 

So to try and counter this problem I've been copying tunes from all the tutors I have into Finale's Print Music. Then I run "Play" and I can hear how it's supposed to sound (IF I've put it in correctly). I also add the button designations and am slowly getting to identify the various relationships, note to button to ear.

 

It being Fathers Day........Happy Fathers Day everyone!.... I have a day to play/practice for 15 minutes, run in here and plunk in more music notation, back to out to practice, and no ones giving me heck for not doing the lawn....yet.... :unsure:

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I do seriously wonder if there is some real condition such as 'music notation dyslexia'. ........discuss!

Not in isolation. Dyslexia is a general condition so you would notice deficiencies in other areas; one area might be more pronounced than another but would still remain part of a general trend. A large percentage of dyslexics also suffer to a greater or lesser extent from dyspraxia, commonly referred to as 'clumsy child syndrome' and exhibit a lack of physical coordination and fine motor skills.

 

Oddly enough many of the pupils at the school I work in (a private school specialising in sever dyslexia) do really well in music so it would seem that tadpoles on washing lines are less of an issue than the written word. That said working 'by ear' and learning chord shapes are much more popular than the dots.

 

In answer to Rusty's original enquiry I can't really comment on bad habits of anglo playing because I only play English system but I can thoroughly recommend buying a copy of the 3 CD album Anglo International to hear it done properly in a number of styles and disciplines. That will give you something to aspire to - and a great deal of listening pleasure. :)

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. As per some advice to incorporate chords, I went on-line to look up how to construct them. I fell asleep reading the explanation and got hopelessly lost and disinterested with all the BIG words! Finally I went back to Bertram Levy's tutor and got real.

I have strong suspicion that those explaining are endeared by their own voices. Practice is the only way.

As for Anglo International - I disagree that it's done "properly". Most of it is very amateurish, mushy and unsophisticated to say the least. Irish stuff is good though, so if you are into Irish only (what a strange concept!), you'll likely find Anglo International very useful. Other than that you are left to your own. And I don't believe in music dislexia the way you put it. Reading the notes is very easy, there are only 7 of them, in two locations on 5 lines. You can read and write, can't you? You even learned to type, a real job 100 years ago.

You just don't do it correctly. May be just start with 3 notes a practice. Write them on stave in various combinations, and play it untill you turn blue. It'll take you 20 minutes. etc.

As for the chords, write down the triads and practice them in each key, that's possible on your instrument.

If you want, I have a list of triads I made for myself. No construction please - it's not a piano.

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Someone, I think it was David, said something about going to dances. This may be running before you can walk, but if ever you can get to play for dancers that is a most tremendous discipline. Much of this stuff we play is dance music, and watching dancers in front of you responding to the music you play both teaches you how to play for dance and gives a huge buzz - can't recommend it enough.

Yes, it was me, and I meant what I said. I would think playing for dances would be much easier after you had done some dancing. I would go so far as to say that I would be wary of a dance musician who had never tried the dancing.

 

I guess the lesson here is that different approaches work for different people. I've no doubt Chris's take on this was earnestly learned from experience, as was mine. My own experience, initially, was contradancing (New England) and then playing in a contrtadance band. Then the same sequence with Playford-style dancing. Then (20 years ago) I joined a Morris Dancing team as a musician without ever having tried it and was quickly encouraged to take some Morris dance workshops at Pinewoods, which I did, and I feel it improved my playing considerably even though I do not consider myself a Morris Dancer.

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Someone, I think it was David, said something about going to dances. This may be running before you can walk, but if ever you can get to play for dancers that is a most tremendous discipline. Much of this stuff we play is dance music, and watching dancers in front of you responding to the music you play both teaches you how to play for dance and gives a huge buzz - can't recommend it enough.

Yes, it was me, and I meant what I said. I would think playing for dances would be much easier after you had done some dancing. I would go so far as to say that I would be wary of a dance musician who had never tried the dancing.

 

I guess the lesson here is that different approaches work for different people. I've no doubt Chris's take on this was earnestly learned from experience, as was mine. My own experience, initially, was contradancing (New England) and then playing in a contrtadance band. Then the same sequence with Playford-style dancing. Then (20 years ago) I joined a Morris Dancing team as a musician without ever having tried it and was quickly encouraged to take some Morris dance workshops at Pinewoods, which I did, and I feel it improved my playing considerably even though I do not consider myself a Morris Dancer.

I agree with you David,if you have never danced the music then the chances are that your timing will be out. The "feel" of the music comes with participation,certainly with Morris music playing the dancers are looking for lift,The timing is vital for good dancing,if you have never danced the tunes then you will never achieve what the dancers require of you.

Al

Posting chopped with one finger

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I am blissfully content now to settle for this sort of learning and reluctantly accept the limitations of being musically illiterate.

 

Hold on Dave, music exists as music .. it's like language - it's an oral and aural thing. You don't need to be able to read or write music notation to play music anymore than you need to be able to write language in order to be able to talk. The word 'illiteracy' comes across as a putdown whereas in this context, it has no relevance. As far as I can see and hear there are many people out there who are limited and stunted as musicians because they have been taught to play by reading music notation. Instead of the music coming out like speech, they play in a stilted manner, often trying to remember sequences of notes GAB etc. rather than sounds and rhythms. For these, playing and learning by ear is a mystery and one they would dearly love to solve.

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I am blissfully content now to settle for this sort of learning and reluctantly accept the limitations of being musically illiterate.

 

Hold on Dave, music exists as music .. it's like language - it's an oral and aural thing. You don't need to be able to read or write music notation to play music anymore than you need to be able to write language in order to be able to talk. The word 'illiteracy' comes across as a putdown whereas in this context, it has no relevance. As far as I can see and hear there are many people out there who are limited and stunted as musicians because they have been taught to play by reading music notation. Instead of the music coming out like speech, they play in a stilted manner, often trying to remember sequences of notes GAB etc. rather than sounds and rhythms. For these, playing and learning by ear is a mystery and one they would dearly love to solve.

 

Hi Tombilly,

 

Very much agree with your comments. I used the word 'illiteracy' only because I felt it fairly accurately puts across my meaning. I certainly did not intend it to be any sort of a put down, but I can see your point. Perhaps I should have emphasised that I meant the word to apply, not to musical ability or appreciation as a whole, but rather to the inability to understand the conventional notations and glossary of terms etc. used in reading & writing music.

 

That there are similar frustration amongst sight readers wishing to play by ear, I have no doubt at all.

The main points I wished to get across were that folks should work hard to master both, before they get too set in their ways and that teachers should try to build both elements into their teaching methods and perhaps encourage and support a bit more ear learning, experimentation and self expression right from the early stages.

 

I do feel that not being able to sight read probably made some aspects of learning somewhat more difficult for me, particularly in the early stages of learning. It does not bother me much now, but still leaves me with that vague feeling that I am somehow 'missing out' on new opportunities to expand. Playing by ear (or should that read 'flying by the seat of my pants' ?) has completely moulded the way my playing style has developed. How different this might have been, had I been able to read music, I simply have no idea.

 

Perhaps those who do teach might like to comment on how such 'integration' of sight and ear playing might be achieved in practice?

 

Regards

 

Dave

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I am blissfully content now to settle for this sort of learning and reluctantly accept the limitations of being musically illiterate.

 

Hold on Dave, music exists as music .. it's like language - it's an oral and aural thing. You don't need to be able to read or write music notation to play music anymore than you need to be able to write language in order to be able to talk. The word 'illiteracy' comes across as a putdown whereas in this context, it has no relevance. As far as I can see and hear there are many people out there who are limited and stunted as musicians because they have been taught to play by reading music notation. Instead of the music coming out like speech, they play in a stilted manner, often trying to remember sequences of notes GAB etc. rather than sounds and rhythms. For these, playing and learning by ear is a mystery and one they would dearly love to solve.

 

Hi Tombilly,

 

Very much agree with your comments. I used the word 'illiteracy' only because I felt it fairly accurately puts across my meaning. I certainly did not intend it to be any sort of a put down, but I can see your point. Perhaps I should have emphasised that I meant the word to apply, not to musical ability or appreciation as a whole, but rather to the inability to understand the conventional notations and glossary of terms etc. used in reading & writing music.

 

That there are similar frustration amongst sight readers wishing to play by ear, I have no doubt at all.

The main points I wished to get across were that folks should work hard to master both, before they get too set in their ways and that teachers should try to build both elements into their teaching methods and perhaps encourage and support a bit more ear learning, experimentation and self expression right from the early stages.

 

I do feel that not being able to sight read probably made some aspects of learning somewhat more difficult for me, particularly in the early stages of learning. It does not bother me much now, but still leaves me with that vague feeling that I am somehow 'missing out' on new opportunities to expand. Playing by ear (or should that read 'flying by the seat of my pants' ?) has completely moulded the way my playing style has developed. How different this might have been, had I been able to read music, I simply have no idea.

 

Perhaps those who do teach might like to comment on how such 'integration' of sight and ear playing might be achieved in practice?

 

Regards

 

Dave

I went to a sing/play around on Monday last and a young lady was playing two mazurkas that she had learned from music. Although I have played these many times in the past it took a time before I recognised the tunes she was playing. There is no way you could have danced to them.I have been to a number of dances where the band although brilliant to listen to was a nightmare to dance to.

Dave you have played for Morris so understand the rhythm,speed and requirements of the dancers,reading from dots does not teach you that.It is one of the advantages of by ear playing.The advantage of the dots is that it gives you the correct notes to play and in many cases the correct accompaniment,where you and I Dave may have difficulties and I agree may miss out. Still what we lack in this we make up with good looks and personalities.

Al ;)

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Like Dave, I can't relate the dots to the buttons on the concertina, and like him I have to count up from the primary key buttons if I want to find a particular note.

 

I don't think this is dyslexia in any technical sense. As a child I learned to play recorder, and learned the dots along with the fingering. Consequently I can play (badly) from music on the recorder. The concertina I learned by ear, and never needed to know the names of the notes I was playing. I've made a few efforts to learn since, but frankly they've been rather half-hearted because I still don't really need to know. It would be a nice-to-have - it does get a bit frustrating that I have to first get a tune into my head, either by playing it on the recorder or by copying it into ABC, but I've got more useful things to do with my time than learn a skill I don't really need.

 

But with hindsight, I wish I'd made more of an effort when I was learning, because then I'd be able to play the tunes straight from the music.

 

But whether you learn a tune from the dots or by ear, that's only part of it. You then have to learn how to play it

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"Literacy/illiteracy" are metaphors taken from language. "Literacy" means "knowing the letters", or, more generally, being able to read.

 

Now, all of us here in the forum can obviously write, which is more difficult than reading, so I assume we are all fully literate.

 

BUT how many of us could play a convincing Hamlet or Richard III on stage?

 

If we have the acting talent, training and experience, we can take the text of a play we've never seen before and make a pretty good stab at it. If we're not actors, just being able to read and understand the text won't help us.

 

By analogy, there's more to music than just reading notes. To take the example of the "unrecognisable mazurkas": you've got to look behind the pitch and duration of the notes, and recognise that this is supposed to be a mazurka. To do that, you have to know what a mazurka is. And to know that, you have to have heard mazurkas before.

 

The subtle transformation from staff notation to physically audible music goes beyond mere "literacy". There's a lot of hearing and remembering involved, IMHO.

When comparing language and music, I think one should focus on drama rather than on novels or technical manuals. "Performance" is the key word!

 

Cheers,

John

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