A Modest Proposal - Concertina Fund

[Chris Drinkwater]

The East Anglian Traditional Music Trust, founded some years ago by John and Katie Howson, managed to secure some Arts Council funding, via The National lottery, a while back, that enabled them to buy some basic Hohner Pokerwork melodeons for hiring out to local people keen to try learning to play the melodeon. I believe they recently got some more funding to enable them to buy a few Jack and Jackie concertinas, again with the purpose of being able to hire them out for a modest sum to people wanting to try their hand at learning the concertina. Melodeon player Ed Rennie, is one of the founders of the Devon Squeezebox Foundation, a Not For Profit Organisation set up in 2006 to encourage interest in playing music, primarily from the folk traditions of England, on free reed instruments e.g. piano and button accordians, concertina, melodeon etc in the County of Devon and through out the West Country. They have purchased 10 Hohner pokerwork melodeons, enabling them to offer a melodeon hire scheme, in the first instance.

 

I think these hire schemes are a great idea and I can't see why a few enthusiastic and committed folk musicians can't come together in their part of the world and found similar organisations to these, with aim of getting funding to buy instruments for hire, running classes, etc. The world needs more concertina players!

 

Chris

[Ivan Viehoff]

The original "modest proposal" was the suggestion that Irish people suffering from famine should attempt to survive by eating their children - nutricious, reducing the amount required by the family, and capable of being replaced later when conditions improve. So "modest proposals" are often rather immodest proposals that are not intended to be taken seriously, but rather to draw attention to a scandalous situation.

 

The situation of other musicians can be far worse. My father recently met a professional violinist who had sold his house to buy an antique Cremona-made violin, and then his car to buy a bow. Apparently you can't get anywhere as a violinist these days unless you have one, so this was the only way to get on. Nothing else sounds like them, we are told. I hope his investment pays off.

[m3838]

The situation of other musicians can be far worse. My father recently met a professional violinist who had sold his house to buy an antique Cremona-made violin,

 

I can't believe that story. Why not a loan? and how many of those violins are around vs. number of professional violiniists on salary? My Yamaha upright was bought for $4000 (and I got ripped off a little), and it's good sound and even light action is addressed by most professionals that tried it, except one, who has Korean made Spinet, bright and tinny, at her home.

These are just children's horror stories, to my opinion. My friend just bought some famous mandolin after waiting for 5 years for it to be re-conditioned. $14000.

http://www.janetdavismusic.com/Cremonasv1500group.html

and here is the excerpt from the site, maintained by the Burgess Violin maker:

Seriously, it is inaccurate to assume that the old violin makers, viola makers and cello makers possessed all the secrets of value associated with their craft. It is well known that they were constantly experimenting, changing the size, proportion, contours and thickness of the violins they made. And most of these instruments have since been altered to improve their performance. Instrument makers today have before them the finest works of the old makers as examples and inspiration, for their examination and study. And they have the accumulated experience of all who have come since.

 

Frequently, musicians who have done extensive comparison shopping conclude that they would have to spend well into six figures on an antique instrument to equal the sound they have found in a good new instrument

 

 

Sounds familiar, doesn't it?

Of course he wants to sell new instruments and make a living, but I don't think he's way off.

[Ivan Viehoff]

The situation of other musicians can be far worse. My father recently met a professional violinist who had sold his house to buy an antique Cremona-made violin,

I can't believe that story. Why not a loan? ... Frequently, musicians who have done extensive comparison shopping conclude that they would have to spend well into six figures on an antique instrument to equal the sound they have found in a good new instrument

I believe the violin cost about about the price of a typical British house, ie about GBP250,000, not far off $500,000 at present exchange rates. That is consistent with the quote you give above. If you want to be a leader of an orchestra, etc, you have to be playing an instrument of this kind of value on the British scene. Given the terms of a loan for such an amount, you'd get better terms mortgaging the house and buying the violin than the other way around. But I don't think his income was sufficient to remortgage his house to that degree. Hence selling it and going to live somewhere more modest. If the housing market drops, as now looks likely, maybe it will turn out to be a financial good move: if the violin doesn't pay for itself by getting him better work, he'll be able to sell it and buy a better house than the one he sold.

[Stephen Chambers]

... if the violin doesn't pay for itself by getting him better work, he'll be able to sell it and buy a better house than the one he sold.

And if it does pay for itself by getting him better work, he'll have a good "pension fund" in it by the time he retires...

[hjcjones]

It could also be that as a professional musician, he put more value on owning a superb antique instrument than on owning a house.

 

Concertinas don't (yet) achieve the same sort of prices. But many members on here will have made sacrifices and personal choices which others might think crazy to own a good-quality instrument, without even the justification of earning their living with it. Why spend thousands on a concertina when you could have a better car? Well. why not? Why spend thousands on a better car when you could have a concertina?

 

Professional valuers distinguish between "value" (the price an item might be expected to achieve in the market) and "worth", which is an individual's perception of the benefit to them of owning the item. The fact that we regularly see concertinas selling for "crazy" prices merely shows that some people's desire is stronger than others' and they are prepared to pay more to beat the market. If enough people share that desire then you have to revise your view of the market, but there will always be someone prepared to pay that little bit more.

[m3838]

It could also be that as a professional musician, he put more value on owning a superb antique instrument than on owning a house.

 

Concertinas don't (yet) achieve the same sort of prices. But many members on here will have made sacrifices and personal choices which others might think crazy to own a good-quality instrument, without even the justification of earning their living with it. Why spend thousands on a concertina when you could have a better car? Well. why not? Why spend thousands on a better car when you could have a concertina?

 

Professional valuers distinguish between "value" (the price an item might be expected to achieve in the market) and "worth", which is an individual's perception of the benefit to them of owning the item. The fact that we regularly see concertinas selling for "crazy" prices merely shows that some people's desire is stronger than others' and they are prepared to pay more to beat the market. If enough people share that desire then you have to revise your view of the market, but there will always be someone prepared to pay that little bit more.

 

I dont' question existence of crazy people with uncontrollable desires.

I question their motivations.

One first tier viola player in San Francisco Philharmony plays modern Viola of assymmetrical shape. Didn't prevent him from anything. I doubt having an antique will get you anywhere on it's own, or even assist.

This market is driven by superstition.

[Dirge]

On the other hand at the very top surely all the aspiring player has to believe is that it gives him the slightest edge and he will go for it; equally, wave a strad arround and your potential employers may take you that fraction more seriously.

 

There may be no audible benefit but it's easy to find good reasons to buy 'the authentic item' even if the instrument isn't really any better. (but who's to say anyway? Not me.) Judging by some of the wrecks we see sold for high prices on Ebay, with reeds missing rusted, or broken, this is what some Anglo players think too.

[Larry Stout]

To my ear as a violin player I hear a clear progression plastic << fine German << antique. The clarity of tone, particularly in the upper range makes a lot of difference. On the other hand, I wouldn't want to judge the instruments based on YouTube sound samples.

 

The cello player in my band uses a carbon fiber 5 string cello, which sounds fine for our uses. It also has the advantage of being rather immune to weather conditions.

 

From bottom level playable instruments to top of the line vintage is only about a factor of 100 for concertinas. For fiddles it's more like 10,000. For both the bottom is only marginally playable and the top is superb.

[Dirge]

Yes but surely as you approach the top end the differences get smaller and smaller, and indeed very subjective, whether it's concertinas or violins? It's top end we're discussing, not 'fine German' but the very best.

 

The price difference is just supply and demand, surely. It would be the other way round if the fiddle was an obscure instrument and the concertina was necessary for every orchestra, don't you think?

[PeterT]

It would be the other way round if the fiddle was an obscure instrument and the concertina was necessary for every orchestra, don't you think?

Concertina ........ obscure?

[Dirge]

No never said that!

 

Editted to add, but I think it is, if you aren't immersed in the things as we all are. Nearly everyone that I've shown mine to has said 'I've never seen one of those before'.

Edited May 13, 2008 by Dirge

[m3838]

To my ear as a violin player I hear a clear progression plastic << fine German << antique. The clarity of tone, particularly in the upper range makes a lot of difference.

 

Plastic is sold at $300, antique at some thousands. The difference in tone is minimal.

Make a plastic one a bit better, at the price of $2000 and you'll hear no difference at all.

And I'm not sure you hear the difference in material's acoustics, not the shape, volume, strings, player's skill.

That's what I'm talking about. How much is enough? Where the instrument surpasses the player? I'm sure if I will bring, say, aforementioned Strad to job interview in Philharmony, I'll get looks, but so if I will drive to that interview in 1911 Bentley.

Something tells me that violin player is disoriented.

[Dirge]

NO you're missing the point. A vintage bentley says 'I have huge amounts of money and am too stupid to buy a Morgan'. A Strad says 'I must be a brilliant player because I have a Strad'. An orchestra will hire him for his playing abilities, not his taste in old cars or independent means. The Strad gets everyone looking at each other slightly more seriously, which may be enough to get our player the job in a competitive market. And to the owner it says 'Right you've got the absolute best, there's no excuse, get on with it!'

[JimLucas]

Yes but surely as you approach the top end the differences get smaller and smaller, and indeed very subjective, whether it's concertinas or violins?

Very subjective, yes.

Smaller differences, no.

 

It's at the highest levels of quality that the differences in sound and feel from instrument to instrument become most clearly individual and personal tastes can be most distinctly satisfied. Among the world's top violinists, some will prefer an Amati over a Stradivarius, others vice versa, and still others prefer an instrument by one or another of the modern makers. (Colin Dipper comes to mind for concertinas, Sam Zygmuntowicz for violins.) And quite likely someone able to buy an Amati or Stradivarius would distinguish among individual instruments by either maker. E.g., one might prefer Strad A over Zyg B, but Zyg B over Strad C. A difference with modern makers is that they can make instruments that sound and feel very much alike, if that is desired. With old instruments it's only possible to choose among the ones that already exist.

 

But we've covered this before, including the mention of Sam (Zyg), in this Topic.

[PeterT]

'Right you've got the absolute best, there's no excuse, get on with it!'

Which is why, in an ideal world, the best, and those who are expected to become the best, players should have access to the best instruments.

 

Fortunately, in the concertina world, we have instruments which can be described as "gold standard"; relatively available, but certainly not cheap.

 

Regards,

Peter.

[JimLucas]

To my ear as a violin player I hear a clear progression plastic << fine German << antique. The clarity of tone, particularly in the upper range makes a lot of difference.

Plastic is sold at $300, antique at some thousands. The difference in tone is minimal.

I, like Larry, hear major differences in tone from instrument to instrument, not only in the three examples Misha posted, but including also the recordings of several other instruments that the same individual has contributed to YouTube. Misha, I begin to suspect that your hearing -- at least in the upper frequency ranges -- is not as fine as some other people's. I suppose that might also help to explain your constantly disparaging comments on the sound of the upper-range notes of treble concertinas.

[PeterT]

No never said that!

 

Editted to add, but I think it is, if you aren't immersed in the things as we all are. Nearly everyone that I've shown mine to has said 'I've never seen one of those before'.

I hope we're still talking concertinas!