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Midi Concertinas


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Button Boxes tend to be tied more closely to tradtional music genres (be it Irish, Cajun, Tex-Mex, what have you).

For efforts to "escape" that, see the "Inappropriate" Songs... Topic in the Tunes/Songs subForum. ;)

 

why play an instrument that doesn't sound like itself?
Ah, but how can it not sound like itself? On the other hand, if it sneaks in looking like something else and bides its time until one day suddenly showing its true face/voice... that sounds like a "sleeper" spy or terrorist. No wonder you're worried!

 

I also think that in a way it is good that their is resistence to inovation in traditional music forms.
Some resist. Some innovate. Some do neither, but just play... or listen.

 

Something innovative should have to earn its place in the music.
But I thought you were arguing that a midi concertina shouldn't be allowed a chance to earn a place, and it's really that attitude that I'm against.

 

That is my biggest fear with Midi instruments in general in the context of traditional music; that one will end up walking into a session and never know what to expect.
But to me that's what makes a great session... a new song, a new tune, and yes, a new instrument. I remember the first time somebody showed up with a B/C box at our local session. We rarely had accordions, and I didn't realize that this was different from the 2-row G/Ds that occasionally showed up, but the guy was spectacular, and that was all that mattered. I was less surprised by the first bouzouki, because I had a friend who used one for Greek music. (There were those who later resisted applying the name "bouzouki" to an instrument that looked more like a flat-back "mandolin" with a growth disorder than like the Greek original.)

 

if everyone brings in instruments with custom layouts and tunings and various sound effects of various sorts... with concertinas sounding like flutes, flutes sounding like fiddles and bodhrans sounding like uillean pipes how much tradition will be left in traditional music...
If it comes to that in one session, then it will be something different... just like jazz and rock&roll each grew out of an earlier music. But it won't happen that way everywhere, maybe even nowhere. Do you really think that the crowd at your local session would embrace that sort of thing?

 

A second -- and perhaps less tolerant -- answer is about as little as there is now! When I started playing with Irish musicians in New York there was considerable resistance to the use of guitars for backup, which many musicians felt was "not traditional". Surprisingly, there was less resistance when guitarists graduated beyond simple I-IV-V chording. The first time I saw a low D whistle was about 10 years later, when Joe McKenna played one that he had made himself. They weren't exactly a significant part of the tradition, though today they're practically inescapable. Some of the top Irish groups today use synthesizer keyboards, and some play tunes with Balkan-style rhythms. The general style of the music also seems to have changed considerably over the past 35 years. Much of today's "traditional" Irish music -- at least the recorded stuff -- would be unrecognizable to musicians in the 1950s, even unimaginable to some. It makes me think of that scene from the movie Back to the Future.

 

Tradition, especially in Irish music, is a living and growing thing, not a fear of innovation or change. Ultimately, some innovations will be rejected and others incorporated, and we may even see the birth of new "regional" styles. Will any of them be based on midi flutes and midi concertinas pretending to be each other? I doubt it. I think you're worrying about a scenario that just isn't going to happen, even without your resistance.

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I don't understand. Does the computina have a bellows? If so, what is it for? I assume the tones are generated electronically. Is there some air pressure device controlling the volume, allowing the manipulating of air to give a pulse to the music? Maybe pressure on the button itself could accomplish that. The anglo needs a directional switch in the bellows.

Inventing musical instruments is all well and good but the picture I'm getting is something more akin to a laptop than a concertina.

I'm not worried about such a thing changing my world. We've had electric guitars for some time and I don't see them used much in traditional Irish music. It's great that there are people with the time and inclination to use for innovation and invention. I'd love to try the thing but when it comes down to it I'm happy with the musical instruments that existed a hundred years ago. I'll keep my computer, minidisc recorder and mp3 player though.

I see great potential for a wide range of those novelty sound effects!

 

EM

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Does the computina have a bellows? If so, what is it for? Is there some air pressure device controlling the volume, allowing the manipulating of air to give a pulse to the music?

I believe that's the general idea. It's how midi wind instruments work.

 

Maybe pressure on the button itself could accomplish that.
It could, but as far as I know, that's not what current designers are aiming for. They want the control to feel as much like a traditional concertina as possible, even when the sound is different.

 

The anglo needs a directional switch in the bellows.
Well, it needs to be able to tell whether the bellows is being compressed or expanded (and how stongly), so it needs either two switches, or one pressure sensor with software that distinguishes between pressures below ambient (expansion) or above ambient (compression). (And a barometer to tell it what ambient is on that day. :) ) But you need the same for an English. Pushing and pulling don't give the same results; something special has to be done to treat them as equal.

 

Inventing musical instruments is all well and good but the picture I'm getting is something more akin to a laptop than a concertina.
I think the idea is more like a computer not on your lap, with a wireless connection to a concertina-shaped keyboard, which is on your lap, leg, or wherever.
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Tradition, especially in Irish music, is a living and growing thing, not a fear of innovation or change.

True, but I think in any tradition, there's an "intelligence" that's been built up over decades (and possibly centuries), which is where the wealth of the musical form lies. Part of the worth of any traditional music form to me is the organic nature of it, being played on true acoustic instruments. One could intellectualize many reasons for this appeal -- the sound coming directly from the instrument, not some amp to the side, the physical control over volume and sound instead of turning knobs to "arbitrarily" change them, or the complex, individual, and often "unpolished" sound of acoustic instruments. But in any case, I think the intelligence or "common sense" built into traditional music is justifiably wary of MIDI instruments. I see how they're used in other musical situations, and for the most part, that's what I look at traditional music forms to get away from. I'm willing to hear an exception, as I'm sure there will be. But for the most part, I'm not interested. A "living tradition" is not the same as no tradition at all.

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But in any case, I think the intelligence or "common sense" built into traditional music is justifiably wary of MIDI instruments.

And I think

... 1) That such "wariness" cannot possibly be justified if it's not based on experience.

... 2) Experience with existing midi instruments -- which by now have been around for quite a long time -- indicates that the projected end-of-tradition scenarios are as unreal as imaginary monsters under the bed.

...3) That the "intelligence" you suggest exists in traditional music (among traditional musicians?) is far from universal or unanimous about many aspects of tradition, including xenophobia directed at midi instruments.

 

...or the complex, individual, and often "unpolished" sound of acoustic instruments.

You think I couldn't make a midi concertina sound "unpolished"? I'll take that as a challenge! :)

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I'm sure the technology has improved, but the last [midi guitar] I played introduced a really noticeable time delay between pickup, MIDI-signal-converter-thingy and synthesizer.

Lousy piece of equipment is my guess. My first experience with what I know was a midi guitar was in 1992, and there was certainly no noticeable time delay with Stanley's setup.

 

And "cheap" shouldn't have anything to do with it. Today's cheap equipment is far advanced beyond the best money could buy only a few years ago.

Bad design and bad programming can still make it perform poorly, though.

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I'm not saying it'll be the "end of the tradition" or anything like that. I'm saying a healthy skepticism is natural and good for ANY tradition, otherwise there wouldn't BE any tradition. Skepticism is not the same as dismissing something out of hand -- I agree with you that one should keep an open mind, which I think is your main point. There's certainly a place for MIDI instruments in any genre, if one wants to explore that. But it's extremely valuable for me, and many others, to have a place free from amplification and computer-generated sounds. Can you agree with that point?

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But it's extremely valuable for me, and many others, to have a place free from amplification and computer-generated sounds.  Can you agree with that point?

I like "free from amplification". I wish I could start with all the pubs, stores, and even the place where I sit after midnight -- sometimes alone -- waiting for the ferry, subjected to music I can't turn off or even down, put there by somebody who may never be in a position to hear it.

 

But all too often a session needs amplification, because of crowd noise. Wish I could turn down the volume on the "audience".

 

"Free from computer-generated sounds"? What if you/I can't tell from listening that they're computer-generated? What if it's a sound not produced by any known acoustic instrument, but it's still a good sound? (What if everything that's needed to produce it fits invisibly inside a concertina?) I'm all for getting rid of computer-generated "music" that sounds bad, but sounds that "sound like computers" these days are merely imitations of what used to be the limitations of electronic sound generation, or even deliberately made to sound artificial.

 

I'm personally much more concerned about sessions where the guitars outnumber the melody instruments and yet they all try to play all the time. With a clearly audible melody I can often play along with an unfamiliar tune, but when the melody is drowned in a morass of chords, I can't even tell whether it's one I know or not.

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I've worked for years simulating things on computers. I've programmed digital audio quite extensively. I have a pretty good idea of the limitations and strengths of it. My interest in acoustic instruments stems from the interaction between a musician and an instrument that vibrates air directly...the complex physical and acoustical interactions that take place are FAR too complex to be modeled perfectly, they're not even understood. I don't think the strength of electronic instruments is in trying to replace this interaction. Of course, this is even more true for an instrument like a violin, or even a whistle, than for a concertina.

 

I'm still not sure I've made myself clear. I'm not opposed to how MIDI instruments "sound." I'm interested in the process of creating sounds from finely crafted instruments, feeling the vibrations, turbulence, and the direct physical connection with the sounds being made. I'm interested in what this brings out in people. An acoustic instrument has no choice but to obey the laws of physics -- your subtle inflections aren't there because someone tried to figure out how to make them happen, but because that's the way the world works. I'm sure others are just as interested in exploring what computers are capable of. But with MIDI instruments, it's very easy to get "disconnected" from vibrations and acoustics. And no matter what you do, there will always be an electronic "disconnect" as things go through an electronic circuit and a speaker, instead of wood and metal vibrating the air directly. I'm in no way implying that this dooms them to uselessness -- just that there's a fundamental difference that shouldn't be ignored.

 

I don't mind if others want to integrate artificial instruments with acoustic ones. I very well might want to listen to the result. But I hope they don't mind if I seek out pure acoustic situations to play in for myself, and they at least try to understand where I'm coming from.

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Well, we've had a few different viewpoints here. Mine has not been that I want to replace my acoustic instruments with midi ones (except maybe for being able to practice without being bothered by my neighbors), or that I think midi is better, or even that I would like the sound or feel of a midi concertina... whether it was trying to sound like a concertina or not. My view is that I want to be able to try it and see.

 

I've done that with many an acoustic instrument and been dissatisfied. I've done it with others and kept them. (I've done it with a few and regretted not having enough money.) Maybe I'll reject several midi concertinas but some day encounter one I like. Maybe not. Maybe I'll find an electronic concertina I like, but it won't be midi. (I'm told by a friend who knows much more than I do that midi is old, "primitive" technology, but it's entrenched.)

 

I'll just wait and see. But I do look foward to trying them when they arrive on the market. :)

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Yeah, MIDI is actually just a computer serial port protocol and a set of codes for note on/off, volume, etc., and it came out in about 1980. I just used MIDI as a shorthand for electronic (computer generated) instruments.

 

I never thought you were arguing that acoustic instruments could or should be replaced, just as I've not been arguing that electronic instruments should be banned. It's just that I got a feeling that you were saying there was absolutely no reason anyone should be skeptical of MIDI instruments. But I think there are good reasons to be skeptical, based on the history of acoustic instruments in traditional music, how MIDI instruments have been used in the past, and the real differences between acoustic and electronic instruments. One can be skeptical and open-minded at the same time. But different people should be allowed to explore the path they want to explore, without someone telling them they're unreasonable for excluding what they're not interested in.

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But different people should be allowed to explore the path they want to explore, without someone telling them they're unreasonable for excluding what they're not interested in.

Anyone who wants to exclude something from their own exploration should be free to do so, but not to exclude it from others'.

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I think a lot of folks have developed the habit of getting up in arms about things that _are not_ what's being proposed here. Nobody said, I repeat, nobody said that anyone was planning to invent midi concertinas and use them to invade traditional acoustic sessions. Many sessions today have already been burned by someone showing up with an inappropriate electric instrument; they just proceeded to label the session "acoustic" and put a stop to the problem. I would like a midi concertina, not to use in a normally acoustic environment, but to use in an _electric_ environment, like a reggae jam or a blues jam. It would be fun to use a concertina to "play bass." There are a million things one could do with a midi concertina that would have nothing to do with spoiling anyone's acoustic party. It would have to feel at least as good as a Stagi, though....

 

-Eric Root

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Well, the discussion did branch off of some people saying they'd be dubious about the appropriateness of a MIDI concertina at their "local session." And others posted that it might not be so bad, and implied that one would be closed-minded for wanting to exclude one. I don't think that's necessarily the case, and wanted to make that clear.

 

Have we been "up in arms" here? Seems like a healthy discussion to me, I've found this thread pretty civil and may have even learned a thing or two. And I agree with Jim's last post completely, so I think we're OK here. People will play with the people they want to play with, and won't play with those they don't want to play with, so it's pretty self-policing anyway...which is exactly how music "evolves" in a grass-roots tradition.

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