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Jim Besser

Reed Matters

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I wasn't talking about how quickly a reed begins to speak but how little pressure it takes for the reed to begin to speak. Try testing them out side/side in the same jig. With similar qualities of reed and voicing, I would be *very* surprised if you could make the accordion reed speak with less pressure than the concertina reed no matter how much "carving" you do.

R

 

 

ah ah ah now, no backpedaling, you said:

 

"the concertina reed will start under significantly less pressure"

 

 

I can carve "accordion" reeds to speak at the same pressure, not at less pressure.

 

 

Now I want to point out that I could not always manage that behavior in my reeds. I had to change the way I set and tune reeds to do it. And it is harder to do so in the lowest pitch reeds although I can get pretty darn close on those too.

 

Seems like something easy to check too.

 

Here is my jig.

 

 

Bob

post-4-1077748079.jpg

Edited by Bob Tedrow

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Well, that shot is not so good.

 

 

In fairness, I do agree that stock reeds from the handful of Italian reedmakers are not suitable for direct installation into concertinas.

 

They must be properly carved and retuned for use in concertinas.

 

 

 

Say, why don't one of you boys with lots of time and enthusiasm build a similar jig,

Rich and I will each send in a reed that we have selected and have a little contest?

 

Sort of like a soap box derby for reeds?

 

 

 

Bob Tedrow

Edited by Bob Tedrow

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Guest Marc
Low/high pressure reeds...you don't mean the opposite?? You can hardly create as high a pressure with an accordion as with a concertina so I guess that generally speaking the working pressure of concertina reeds is higher...?

However and whatever pressure is created by the bellows is immaterial to the design and pressure responsiveness of the reeds. They will react as they do.

 

.... and how is that measured?

Mostly subjectively by empirical means (by us and hearsay). We've done some measured testing but not enough to definitively be able to quantify the results.

I don't understand what you mean...if the pressure inside the accordion box is less the (accordion) reeds will work at less pressure and maybe are not "designed" for higher pressure....

You mean the pressure over the reed slot...if you have not measured the difference and relations...."hearsay"....

Maybe what you notice is a demand for greater flow..possibly depending on the slot opening area? or different test conditions....

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You can hardly create as high a pressure with an accordion as with a concertina...

What matters is not how much pressure you can create, but how much you do create under normal playing conditions. I don't press or pull nearly as hard as I could on either concertina or accordion.

 

The question here is what the reeds do at working pressure levels and how/whether those levels differ for the two types of reeds, not how they react under extreme sports conditions.

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Low/high pressure reeds...you don't mean the opposite?? You can hardly create as high a pressure with an accordion as with a concertina so I guess that generally speaking the working pressure of concertina reeds is higher...?
However and whatever pressure is created by the bellows is immaterial to the design and pressure responsiveness of the reeds. They will react as they do.
I don't understand what you mean...if  the pressure inside  the accordion box is less the (accordion) reeds will work at less pressure and maybe are not "designed" for  higher pressure....

You mean the pressure over the reed slot...if you have not measured the difference and relations...."hearsay"....

Maybe what you notice is a demand for greater flow..possibly depending on the slot opening area? or different test conditions....

Without getting into bellows sizes and how hard you squeeze it, pressure measurements, slot area, etc.... just think of two identical quality and pitched reeds in the same fixture as in the photos Bob has supplied above. The air chamber is open to both at the same time. If you slowly decrease the pressure from zero to more (because these jigs work on the "pull"), the concertina reed will start to sound before the accordion reed. At least that is my contention. Bob's suggestion for a "reed derby" is a good one and a fair way to evaluate parameters.

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I wasn't talking about how quickly a reed begins to speak but how little pressure it takes for the reed to begin to speak.
ah ah ah now, no backpedaling, you said:

"the concertina reed will start under significantly less pressure"

What's the problem?

Seems like something easy to check too. Here is my jig.

Looks good to me! So what are your parameters and findings?

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Say, why don't one of you boys with lots of time and enthusiasm build a similar jig,

Rich and I will each send in a reed that we have selected and have a little contest?

Who is "you boys"? An independent? I like the idea.

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Say, why don't one of you boys with lots of time and enthusiasm build a similar jig,

Rich and I will each send in a reed that we have selected and have a little contest?

Who is "you boys"?

Maybe he means one of those with not enough other hobbies? :)

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ok,

 

I have another jig here ready for the contest. We should agree on a note or two as the dovetail aperture will not fit every size reed.

 

 

I will ship the jig and my reed(s) to a third party. Hopefully one of you out there familiar with the working end of a handtool might volunteer.

 

With Rich's blessing of course.

 

 

Bob

post-4-1077811100.jpg

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The Great Southern Reed Race

 

 

For those who still are interested in the topic of "reedspeed":

 

I will hold a demonstration of "traditional style reeds" VS properly carved and set

"accordion style" reeds at the South East Squeeze-in this coming weekend.

 

Watch for the exciting results next week.

 

Bob Tedrow

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ok,

 

I have another jig here ready for the contest. We should agree on a note or two as the dovetail aperture will not fit every size reed.

 

 

I will ship the jig and my reed(s) to a third party. Hopefully one of you out there familiar with the working end of a handtool might volunteer.

 

With Rich's blessing of course.

 

 

Bob

Has someone already taken you up on this? What are they supposed to do, exactly? Report which reed speaks first?

 

-Eric Root

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ok,

 

I have another jig here ready for the contest. We should agree on a note or two as the dovetail aperture will not fit every size reed.

 

 

I will ship the jig and my reed(s) to a third party. Hopefully one of you out there familiar with the working end of a handtool might volunteer.

 

With Rich's blessing of course.

 

 

Bob

Has someone already taken you up on this? What are they supposed to do, exactly? Report which reed speaks first?

 

-Eric Root

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No one has taken me up so far, the issue was dropped like a hot potato.

 

I intend to demonstrate there is no significant difference at all in the the response of a properly prepared "accordion" style (I do dislike the term) reed and that of a traditional reed of similar pitch.

 

Actually, I will have set the jig up so that anyone can perform and observe the results. I will have it set up all weekend for those who wish to do so.

 

Bob

Edited by Bob Tedrow

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No one has taken me up so far, the issue was dropped like a hot potato.

I wouldn't say it was dropped, but I am surprised at the lack of interest.

I intend to demonstrate there is no significant difference at all  in the the response of a properly prepared "accordion" style (I do dislike the term) reed and that of a traditional reed of similar pitch.

I look forward to the demonstration, or results I should say, as I won't be able to be there....

 

When you say "no difference at all" I hope you're planning on several tests: minimum pressure to onset of sound, range of amplitude (minimum to maximum loudness of sound), deviation from pitch over amplitude range.... I realize that this is beyond what we were talking about, but if this were all possible it would be a great demonstration.

 

What pitch reed (or will you be doing several) will you be using?

 

That's this weekend? I don't know if I can get the reeds down to you that quickly but if you set the concertina reed with the same care you do with the accordion reed, things should be comparable.

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Has someone already taken you up on this?  What are they supposed to do, exactly?  Report which reed speaks first?

Yes, that's the original idea: to see which reed speaks first under the least amount of pressure.

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I intend to demonstrate there is no significant difference at all  in the the response of a properly

 

 

When you say "no difference at all" I hope you're planning on several tests: minimum pressure to onset of sound, range of amplitude (minimum to maximum loudness of sound), deviation from pitch over amplitude range.... I realize that this is beyond what we were talking about, but if this were all possible it would be a great demonstration.

 

What pitch reed (or will you be doing several) will you be using?

 

That's this weekend? I don't know if I can get the reeds down to you that quickly but if you set the concertina reed with the same care you do with the accordion reed, things should be comparable.

 

Bob

 

I intend to demonstrate there is no significant difference at all  in the the response

 

Rich

 

When you say "no difference at all" I hope you're planning on several tests: minimum pressure to onset of sound, range of amplitude (minimum to maximum loudness of sound), deviation from pitch over amplitude range.... I realize that this is beyond what we were talking about, but if this were all possible it would be a great demonstration.

 

Hang on, I said there is no significant difference in the reeds response to pressure,

 

I believe you expect that we will note a significant difference in the two reeds response to pressure.

 

 

As far as testing the other factors lets leave that for another day. I am only prepared to show there is no significant difference in the behavior of the two styles of reeds.

 

What pitch reed (or will you be doing several) will you be using?

 

A nice middle of the box G seems to me to be a good choice. I will bring a couple pitches.

 

if you set the concertina reed with the same care you do with the accordion reed, things should be comparable.

 

 

But of course, I am after all, a gentleman and one of your biggest fans as well.

 

 

Bob Tedrow

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