Roland V-accordion With W/h Layout

[jjj]

[ragtimer]

Wow, that's impressive -- you can map the Stradella bass/chord LH side!

 

My advice would be to map from the low notes on up. The deep bass end of the 61 notes should be preserved -- if anything, you want an octave lower -- and the really high, squeaky notes at the other end can be let go.

 

As good as W/H is, it would take 10 rows to do 5 octaves, same as a pipe organ manual keyboard. Well, only 8 rows, given the side-by-side octaves in each row.

 

Now, hold on a minute -- I count only 5 rows in what you showed of the Roland -- maybe that's the melody Bayan CBA side. (The Stradella side would have 6 row.) If so, take 2.5 octaves out of the middle of your range. Actually you can get 3.5 octaves due to the side-by-side.

 

Do you now own such a Roland? IF so, have fun, and tell us how it works out. --Mike K.

PS: Rich Morse at least planned a W/H conversion of the Stradella side of an accordion. THe first octave (two rows) were deep bass (I think), and the upper rows tuned an octave higher (maybe).

[Richard Morse]

AFAIK the Roland V Accordion series is NOT mappable... at least not the way you want it to be. There's a switch that allows you to change between B and C system but that's it. You can't assign any note to any particular key.

 

Also - that spread of buttons makes for a pretty poor Hayden layout if you are restricted to playing it with one hand.

 

-- Rich --

[jjj]

The deal is off... for Roland wrote that W/H is not on! (It can only switch to: C-Griff Europe, C-Griff 2, B-Griff Bajan, B-Griff Fin, D-Griff 1, D-Griff 2)

Wow, that's impressive -- you can map the Stradella bass/chord LH side!

Sorry good ragtimer, you seem to confuse something here...

Now, hold on a minute --

Now the alarm clock rang...

Do you now own such a Roland?

Well, I could buy one, but for the time being I'll try to do realize my own dream. Sadly, I'll have to forfeit the W/H idea and settle for Janko, instead, because I only yesterday discovered how difficult (unergonomic) the 4 note chords fingering in W/H is.

Rich Morse at least planned a W/H conversion of the Stradella side of an accordion.

It can be done electronically, by connecting the buttons via switches to a Synth. It might even be possible to do ti mechanically or at least electro-mechanically, via solenoids.

[jjj]

AFAIK the Roland V Accordion series is NOT mappable... at least not the way you want it to be. There's a switch that allows you to change between B and C system but that's it. You can't assign any note to any particular key. Also - that spread of buttons makes for a pretty poor Hayden layout if you are restricted to playing it with one hand. -- Rich --

Correct! In the meanwhile I inquired if their MIDI accordions are mappable. They are not, they answered me, too.

If I had to do it, I could do it regardless, but as you said for W/H layout their layout is pretty poor. In that case I would need to put another keyboard over the original. It all can be done, as you know.

Edited April 24, 2008 by jjj

[Richard Morse]

Rich Morse at least planned a W/H conversion of the Stradella side of an accordion.

It can be done electronically, by connecting the buttons via switches to a Synth. It might even be possible to do ti mechanically or at least electro-mechanically, via solenoids.

I've done several Stradella to Hayden conversions - all mechanically. Most of them involved making new reedbanks into which I'd swap the necessary reeds and then snipping off the bass machine extenders and letting in new ones to operate the correct pallets.

 

-- Rich --

[ragtimer]

I've done several Stradella to Hayden conversions - all mechanically. Most of them involved making new reedbanks into which I'd swap the necessary reeds and then snipping off the bass machine extenders and letting in new ones to operate the correct pallets.

-- Rich --

Did you do what I thought, and make the bottom two rows operate the low double-bass reeds, and hte upper two or three rows play medium and high reeds?

This would work well if and only if the player fingers the chords in the open-structure or "stretched" voicing that you've mentioend on the other thread.

 

BTW, I had thought you converted the accordion LH side by swapping around hte pins that connect the button shafts to the rollers that open the reed pallets, but your method may be less work overall. I think you mean that you do swap pins on the bass reeds.

--Mike K.

[Boney]

I only yesterday discovered how difficult (unergonomic) the 4 note chords fingering in W/H is.

...and you still haven't actually tried a Wicki/Hayden keyboard, have you? Seventh chords are not that difficult, using your middle finger to press the 1st and 5th, the index finger for the 3rd, and the ring finger for the 7th. That's one of the reasons having the 5th so close to the 1st is so nice, it's quite easy to use one finger on it. And also, as Rich said, you may very well want to drop one of the notes of the chord, or play a different inversion, depending on what the melody is doing or the sound you want. Yet you look at a chart and make a firm decision without actually playing, arranging or listening to anything?

 

I have to shake my head a bit here. You're running around with so much theory, but these things can't be quantified. You have to experience them, try the layouts with the type of music you want to play, with your own fingers. Or at least spend a little time on the keyboards, and talk to some people who actually play them! Something as complex as music and ergonomics (two very inexact sciences) can't be reduced to laundry lists and ranked. Sure, you can get an idea of some of the tradeoffs, but that tells you very little without experience.

 

Or, just pick one and go with it! I've picked a Hayden concertina because it seems to fit the mainly diatonic music I like to play but has chromatic options, it's small and easy to transport, it has an interesting sound, and can allow independence between the hands. Also, it's a nice looking, unusual instrument. I don't care if it's "perfect" -- everything has tradeoffs. I'm sure I could play any concertina or accordion keyboard system and be happy, if I spent enough time with it.

[Richard Morse]

I've done several Stradella to Hayden conversions - all mechanically. Most of them involved making new reedbanks into which I'd swap the necessary reeds and then snipping off the bass machine extenders and letting in new ones to operate the correct pallets.

Did you do what I thought, and make the bottom two rows operate the low double-bass reeds, and hte upper two or three rows play medium and high reeds?

No, I did them all with a continuous range of pitches with each button actuating 2 or 3 octaves of reeds. Most of these accordions had switches to cut out one or the other octaves to alter lushness or range.

BTW, I had thought you converted the accordion LH side by swapping around hte pins that connect the button shafts to the rollers that open the reed pallets, but your method may be less work overall. I think you mean that you do swap pins on the bass reeds.

I think we're saying the same thing in two different ways, and I "swapped" the pins on the chord reeds as well as the bass reeds. Nearly every pin was changed. All I did was snipped off the old ones, drilled a hole in the transverse rods and inserted new pins with a dot of superglue.

 

-- Rich --

[Jim Bayliss]

Rich graciously did one of these Stradella to Hayden piano accordion bass conversions for me over 10 years ago, and my opinion is that, as a player, it doesn't work very well. Accordions require players to reach around from the side to play the bass buttons on the front, and this constricts the fingers and makes playing more than one button at a time much more difficult than on the concertina.

[ragtimer]

I only yesterday discovered how difficult (unergonomic) the 4 note chords fingering in W/H is.

...and you still haven't actually tried a Wicki/Hayden keyboard, have you? Seventh chords are not that difficult, using your middle finger to press the 1st and 5th, the index finger for the 3rd, and the ring finger for the 7th. That's one of the reasons having the 5th so close to the 1st is so nice, it's quite easy to use one finger on it. And also, as Rich said, you may very well want to drop one of the notes of the chord, or play a different inversion, depending on what the melody is doing or the sound you want. Yet you look at a chart and make a firm decision without actually playing, arranging or listening to anything?

Right on! I play a 7th chord as you say, but I don't try to hit the 5th with my middle finger, jsut the root note. And I play the 7th up an octave (two rows higher), and the same for the 3rd if it exists 2 rows up.

 

Minor 7th chords are a bit tougher -- you have to hit the 3rd up three rows with your ring finger, but you can usually mash the 7th with that finger folded down a bit.

I have to shake my head a bit here. You're running around with so much theory, but these things can't be quantified. You have to experience them, try the layouts with the type of music you want to play, with your own fingers. Or at least spend a little time on the keyboards, and talk to some people who actually play them! Something as complex as music and ergonomics (two very inexact sciences) can't be reduced to laundry lists and ranked. Sure, you can get an idea of some of the tradeoffs, but that tells you very little without experience.

I agree 100% -- you, or folks you trust, have to *try them for real* before making judgments. And, due to individual differences, we have people on this Forum who swear by their favorite concertina system, no matter what it is. And most of them admit they could have been happy with another scheme, but what they learned may well have been best suited to their individual thought processes and nervous systems.

 

Now to see if this posting shows my updated avatar -- the dreadnought Bastari Hayden 67.

--Mike K.