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Is Irish Concertina Music Boring?


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Actually Howard, people have answered your assertions re not liking ITM on concertina .. but you're either not reading them or ignoring them. You say you like playing ITM on other instruments so you must surely know ... repeat, that ITM is melody and rhythm driven. You like chords and harmonies but this generally speaking is not part of the Irish music tradition. Full stop!

 

Fiddle players add the odd double stop, flute and whistle stick to melody. Pipes have regulators but they're generally regarded as a later addition as far as I know. Some box players accompany with left hand to emphasise rhythm, partic. when no bodhran player but that's about it, is it not?

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I don't play Anglo, but just looking at the way the hand strap/support is off-centre, it seems (almost*) inevitable that when you change bellows direction there will be a certain degree of "flapping" due to the orientation of the ends changing (given that you can only support the orientation of the ends with the fingers when pushing).

I disagree, Danny. I'm no virtuoso, but your description doesn't match the way I play. "Flapping"? On quick bellows reversals, there's no time for flapping! The orientation of my ends changes little, if at all, when I change bellows direction, and I can most certainly use my fingers to control the orientation of the ends on pull as well as on push.

 

But rather than an extended description now, why don't I show you this coming weekend? :)

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On another thread, m3838 expressed the view that Irish concertina is boring. As it happens, I agree.

 

Although I now prefer to play mostly English music, I used to play a lot of Irish. However, I never came across anglo players at the Irish sessions I played in (admittedly, these were in England rather than in Ireland). Any concertina players at these sessions played EC. I can remember meeting an anglo player only once, at a session during Whitby Festival.

 

When Anglo International came out I was curious to listen to some Irish-style concertina playing, but most of it left me fairly underwhelmed. The music didn't seem to flow in the way it would on fiddle or flute or even button accordion. In a few places I felt the players were struggling to maintain the rhythm while battling with bellows reversals. These are top players on top-quality instruments. I am not questioning their virtuosity or musicianship, but I was left with the feeling that the anglo concertina is not ideally suited to Irish music.

 

The other problem for me is that I don't really like the sound of a single free reed. Play a few together and they sing, but one on its own sounds thin and unsupported. I prefer concertinas (regardless of system) to be played harmonically. The Irish style of playing anglo, while undoubtedly technically impressive, seems to me not to make full use of the instrument's potential.

 

(Ducks back below the parapet...)

 

Ok, I was away for the weekend, so I just saw this thread. I will address the particular claims with respect to the concertina.

 

1. I do not find ITM on Anglo's to be boring, in fact, I love the stuff so much that I ended up replacing my previous chosen instrument, the B/C button accordion with it.

2. No the music doesn't flow the same as it does on a fiddle or flute or button accordion, but then again, a fiddle doesn't flow the same as a flute or a button accordion either (and indeed different fiddle players will have different flows as well). Heck a B/C button accordion will flow very different to a C#/D or a D/Eb.

3. Bellows reversals are not, I think, a major issue on the concertina. Being far less massive than the Button Accordion, I actually find bellows control to be easier on the Concertina. The only exception is with respect to the E/F#/G or G/F#/E triplets that were fairly common when I was playing a B/C button accordion (and mind you I am referring specifically to the lower version of that triplet where two bellows reversals are required to pull it off, the higher one with only one bellows reversal is pretty easy).

4. I find the notion that the Anglo Concertina is not "ideally" suited to Irish Music to be somewhat of a contradiction in terms. The Anglo has been adopted and integrated into ITM for well more than a century now (decades longer than the B/C and C#/D accordions and much longer still than the bouzuki, guitar or low whistle). Pretty much by definition it is a part of the Tradition. So ITM played on the concertina by the best Irish exponents are playing the music in a style that is appropriate to the Tradition, even if it is somewhat different than the way other music is played.

 

I am fortunate that living near Baltimore, I have access to some of the best Trad Musicians on the East Coast of the USA. While Baltimore is not (yet!) the home of any great Irish Concertina Players, it is filled with several musicians who know the music very well. None of them seem to think the concertina is not suited to Irish Music. Granted, one shouldn't just accept the received wisdom, but when the received wisdom matches ones own experience (I love ITM on the concertina) it does give one reason to believe that ones own opinion is valid :).

 

--

Bill

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Umm...

I didn't say Irish Music is boring (too late, but since my name was mentioned...). I said "majority of concertina players of Irish music, as well as majority of players of any instruement in any style, (especially classical) - been excruciatingly boring".

Mainly because most players are simply not talented, like it or not.

Excuse me guys, but I have an impression, that some of us are not fully aware of the drastic and hopeless lack of talent on our part. Who cares how many years you or me have been attending what sessions, or, as some foolishly claim, how many years we have merely "listened" to some music? Jody is totally correct, when saying that Irish tunes are great fun to play, they are. They are more fun to play than anything else I have tried. But to be enjoyed by the listeners, you and me have to have natural TALENT, for Christ sake. Frankly, except for one or two players on Youtube, the rest is rubbish, if taken too seriously.'

The talent can't be learned, or developed, contrary to propaganda of "feel-good" new age punks, can't be nurtured, it can only be accepted. It makes it's own rules, whether it is about ITM been melodic, chordal or shmordal. Never underestimate the influence of extremely non-traditional, classical ballet and concervatory trained "Riverdance", that sparked world-wide popularity of Irish music.

So boredom from listening of amateurs on CD is predictable. Amateurs should not record CD's, they have to play it together and have fun.

I wish for existence of Talent-meter, with some grades.

By all means, everybody learn to play instruments, as different as possible and join in a party, but by all of those means, be reasonable and don't play for people, unless asked exactly three times. It includes CDs, Youtube, C.net tune page and the rest.

There is Russian proverb: "Measure 7 times to cut once".

P.S.

My 6 year old just told me the music is rhythm. Hmm. She strongly dislikes me playing my English, but jumps to dancing every time I pick up accordion or ukulele. There you have it. And who's to say that MY little one is wrong? Anyone to challenge her?

Be warned. ;)

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Never underestimate the influence of extremely non-traditional, classical ballet and concervatory trained "Riverdance", that sparked world-wide popularity of Irish music.

So boredom from listening of amateurs on CD is predictable. Amateurs should not record CD's, they have to play it together and have fun.

 

Ah come on, LOL!! .... very, very few Irish Trad musicians would have any time at all for Riverdance .. except maybe those who got paid to play or dance on stage.

 

The inference of your other statement is that only professionals should record CD's - again that's a load of rubbish. There are many very talented ITM musicians who play for the love of the music and who are quite deserving of being recorded for posterity. Twenty/ thirty years ago, they would have died off and their music lost. Have a listen to the Wooden Flute Obsession CD's sometimes - a mix of all sorts of fluters.

 

Yes, there's a fierce amount of rubbish on YouTube but you don't have to look at it.

 

Anyway, I'm off to play at a local session and there's one gent there in his late '70's whose been playing box since a child and I'm telling you, he's never been recorded as far as I know but he's mesmeric.

Edited by tombilly
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Umm...

I didn't say Irish Music is boring (too late, but since my name was mentioned...). I said "majority of concertina players of Irish music, as well as majority of players of any instruement in any style, (especially classical) - been excruciatingly boring".

 

I would say that this is an accurate enough statement, though the level of boredom will vary with respect to the listener. I consider myself to have at most a minimum of skill with the instrument. Yet I have been complimented by a number of people on my playing. I don't think this means that my skill is in any way extraordinary (quite the contrary, I should be much better if I put the time into the instrument that I should) rather, many who are not musicians don't catch everything that should be in the music.

 

Mainly because most players are simply not talented, like it or not.

Excuse me guys, but I have an impression, that some of us are not fully aware of the drastic and hopeless lack of talent on our part. Who cares how many years you or me have been attending what sessions, or, as some foolishly claim, how many years we have merely "listened" to some music? Jody is totally correct, when saying that Irish tunes are great fun to play, they are. They are more fun to play than anything else I have tried. But to be enjoyed by the listeners, you and me have to have natural TALENT, for Christ sake. Frankly, except for one or two players on Youtube, the rest is rubbish, if taken too seriously.'

The talent can't be learned, or developed, contrary to propaganda of "feel-good" new age punks, can't be nurtured, it can only be accepted. It makes it's own rules, whether it is about ITM been melodic, chordal or shmordal. Never underestimate the influence of extremely non-traditional, classical ballet and concervatory trained "Riverdance", that sparked world-wide popularity of Irish music.

 

Here, I am going to have to disagree quite strongly. While talent certainly plays a role (i.e. some people simply can't play a concertina well, and some people can't play any instrument well), I would say that many have a moderate amount of talent. Should that talent be nurtured at a young enough age, and should the player be dedicated enough, I think there is enough evidence to show that there is a strong correlation between the level of work, and the level of skill. (in fact, I remember a study that was published a couple of years ago that showed that amongst classical musicians there was a direct correlation between the amount of time spent practicing and the level of success they achieved.)

 

As for Riverdance; it might have sparked an interest in ITM, but it certainly didn't define ITM. Also, Riverdance would not have been possible without the Chieftans, Planxty and the Bothy Band (to name a few), as well as the countless Step Dancing Schools and competitions that are run around the United States, Ireland and other areas strongly influenced by the Irish Diaspora.

 

So boredom from listening of amateurs on CD is predictable. Amateurs should not record CD's, they have to play it together and have fun.

I wish for existence of Talent-meter, with some grades.

By all means, everybody learn to play instruments, as different as possible and join in a party, but by all of those means, be reasonable and don't play for people, unless asked exactly three times. It includes CDs, Youtube, C.net tune page and the rest.

There is Russian proverb: "Measure 7 times to cut once".

 

I am of mixed mind about recording. It you are recording expecting to be the next big thing in ITM, you probably will be unsuccessful; but if you are posting to teach the basics to others (or tunes), or you are recording to get feedback on your playing, I think those are excellent uses of modern recording technologies.

 

--

Bill

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Perhaps ITM is too large a catch-all.

Irish dance music is one corner and the concertina is purposefully there as a "loud" instrument playing the top line (with a few chords), ornamentation not really being necessary or audible over the band.

The session is another area, but not a 30 strong, all-comers session like a lot of Irish seshes in the UK, but in a small group or solo concertina. It is probably in this setting that the Mole Hills of the ITM world will play their 8 part pipe-jigs with as many chords, ornaments, drones and shrieks as can be fitted in, bearing in mind, much of these "noises" are uillean-pipe imitations (now why didn't we get onto a ITM on pipes is raucous and boring thread?).

Another area again is the small group playing Carolan tunes (or even like the Chieftans) where the concertina is kept in the background and played in the best possible taste,on the whole. If people find that boring, that is their opinion, but I cant see why it is boring on concertina, but not on fiddle if both are playing at the same time.

 

How did I get into it, Why - mainly the first reason through dance bands, and a bit of the second once I got seriously into it.

 

ITM rules OK

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..... bearing in mind, much of these "noises" are uillean-pipe imitations (now why didn't we get onto a ITM on pipes is raucous and boring thread?).

Ah, but have you looked on the Uillean Pipe Forum? :unsure:

 

I'm surprised, with such a lengthy and passionate debate, that someone has not suggested a Poll on the subject heading.

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Actually Howard, people have answered your assertions re not liking ITM on concertina .. but you're either not reading them or ignoring them. You say you like playing ITM on other instruments so you must surely know ... repeat, that ITM is melody and rhythm driven. You like chords and harmonies but this generally speaking is not part of the Irish music tradition. Full stop!

I may have confused things by putting forward two, quite separate, arguments.

 

My first and main argument is that, to my ears, ITM on concertina sometimes gets very slightly held up for just a moment, a momentary hesitation, in a way which I don't notice with other instruments. As I've been talking about music by some of the best anglo players using top-quality instruments, this suggests to me that there is something inherent in the anglo which needs to be fought against when playing ITM, and that even some the best players struggle to overcome it. This is a technical argument, if you like. Many have disagreed with it, or pointed out that it's simply part of the style, and is to be accepted as such.

 

My second, separate, point is that I simply prefer a chordal sound from a concertina - I think many reeds sound better than one. The anglo is well-designed to be played like this, so to play just a single-line melody is not using one of the instrument's main strengths. It's like playing a piano with just one hand. This is not particularly aimed at Irish music, except that it's probably the most familiar of the single-line melody styles. I'm not advocating that ITM should be played with chords - I understand why it is not - I'm explaining that the sound of the instrument played that way doesn't stir me as much as other ways of playing it. As I said in response to another post, it's a matter of personal taste, and I make no apology for that.

 

In my defence, in trying to make my point I probably overstated it in my original post. It's not that I dislike Irish music played on concertina, but I find I like it less than when it's played on other instruments. So when I choose to listen to Irish music, it probably won't be on concertina, but I certainly wouldn't leave the room. Similarly, when I choose to listen to concertina music, it would probably not include Irish (or any other single-line melody style).

 

But I now have a better understanding of why so many anglo players here are so enthusiastic about it.

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My second, separate, point is that I simply prefer a chordal sound from a concertina - I think many reeds sound better than one. The anglo is well-designed to be played like this, so to play just a single-line melody is not using one of the instrument's main strengths. It's like playing a piano with just one hand. This is not particularly aimed at Irish music, except that it's probably the most familiar of the single-line melody styles. I'm not advocating that ITM should be played with chords - I understand why it is not - I'm explaining that the sound of the instrument played that way doesn't stir me as much as other ways of playing it. As I said in response to another post, it's a matter of personal taste, and I make no apology for that.

 

Well, your preference for a wetter sound (which essentially is what you are looking for, because a perfectly dry accordion would still probably have that one reeded sound) is purely a matter of personal taste, and can't really be answered in an argument. I personally, love the sound of the concertina just as it is. In fact, I would say that the lonely reed sound actually makes it ideally suited for the playing of slow airs. The Pipes are better still, but the single reed sound of the concertina provides a mournful sound that I think few other instruments can match.

 

 

--

Bill

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Ah come on, LOL!! .... very, very few Irish Trad musicians would have any time at all for Riverdance .. except maybe those who got paid to play or dance on stage.

I don't even understand what are you talking about. You certainly don't answer my points here. You just said something, that I may not know, but logical enough, that I wouldn't doubt it, but what relevance does it have to the fact, that Irish Riverdance features obvious French-Russian school of classical ballet, and the musicians are concervatory trained professionals?

 

The inference of your other statement is that only professionals should record CD's - again that's a load of rubbish.

Of course that statement is rubbish. I never said anything of the kind.

I said I'm longing for "talent-meter", and that people, who consider themself amateurs, should measure 7 times before recording a CD. And also that they should play for others only when asked, not shove their CDs up everybody's asses. Just out of courtesy, you know.

There are many very talented ITM musicians who play for the love of the music and who are quite deserving of being recorded for posterity.

 

By all means. I assume you realize that those "many" talented are just a small fraction of those playing, and the posterity of the talented would have benefited greatly, if that majority didn't record their CDs in such mass.

 

Anyway, I'm off to play at a local session and there's one gent there in his late '70's whose been playing box since a child and I'm telling you, he's never been recorded as far as I know but he's mesmeric.

 

Well, that's a great example of reason and humility. Or just luck in finding something else to do for living.

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While talent certainly plays a role (i.e. some people simply can't play a concertina well, and some people can't play any instrument well), I would say that many have a moderate amount of talent.

Well, talent is not "certainly plays a role", but is the most cruicial element in everything.

And if you disagree, try going back to that restorant for lunch, that you have been avoiding. Like for a week, and try to see, if the food gets any better, if you really try to get used to it.

Should that talent be nurtured at a young enough age, and should the player be dedicated enough,

OK, yes, I misspoke. I agree, that talent should be spotted and the doors opened. I meant someone without talent can't develop talent in others. And that talent usually resists such "development" and either dies, or overcomes it.

 

I think there is enough evidence to show that there is a strong correlation between the level of work, and the level of skill.

Practice makes perfect. But it has only very marginal relation to the amount of talent, and even to it's presence.

(in fact, I remember a study that was published a couple of years ago that showed that amongst classical musicians there was a direct correlation between the amount of time spent practicing and the level of success they achieved.)

Rubbish completus. Thousands of highly skilled pianists and guitarists, whose only chance is a career of a one-on-one teacher, could have used that study appropriately, if the paper was soft enough.

 

As for Riverdance; it might have sparked an interest in ITM, but it certainly didn't define ITM.

Did I say it defined it?

Also, Riverdance would not have been possible without the Chieftans, Planxty and the Bothy Band (to name a few), as well as the countless Step Dancing Schools and competitions that are run around the United States, Ireland and other areas strongly influenced by the Irish Diaspora.

And? :blink:

 

I am of mixed mind about recording. It you are recording expecting to be the next big thing in ITM, you probably will be unsuccessful; but if you are posting to teach the basics to others (or tunes), or you are recording to get feedback on your playing, I think those are excellent uses of modern recording technologies.

 

There is no need for mixed feelings. You do as you wish, but don't get surprized, when somebody says that Irish music or concertina is boring. It has become very difficult to find something different from that one Irish CD that you got 10 years ago.

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Well, your preference for a wetter sound (which essentially is what you are looking for, because a perfectly dry accordion would still probably have that one reeded sound) is purely a matter of personal taste, and can't really be answered in an argument.

It's not a "wet" sound I mean - that term is used to refer to tuning pairs of reeds for the same note, such as you get in accordions and melodeons, to slightly differently frequencies to generate "beats" in the sound. I'm talking about playing more than one note at a time on a concertina, to make chords. That makes them "sing" in a way you don't get with a lone reed. That's what I like about chordal concertina, compared with playing single-line melody.

 

Actually, I don't like a "wet" sound, I prefer something a bit drier - my melodeons are swing tuned. Theoretically, a perfectly dry accordion would have that one-reeded sound, but in practice its virtually impossible to tune them exactly the same, and a dry accordion still sounds different from a single reed.

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Umm...

I didn't say Irish Music is boring (too late, but since my name was mentioned...). I said "majority of concertina players of Irish music, as well as majority of players of any instruement in any style, (especially classical) - been excruciatingly boring".

Mainly because most players are simply not talented, like it or not.

Excuse me guys, but I have an impression, that some of us are not fully aware of the drastic and hopeless lack of talent on our part. Who cares how many years you or me have been attending what sessions, or, as some foolishly claim, how many years we have merely "listened" to some music? Jody is totally correct, when saying that Irish tunes are great fun to play, they are. They are more fun to play than anything else I have tried. But to be enjoyed by the listeners, you and me have to have natural TALENT, for Christ sake. Frankly, except for one or two players on Youtube, the rest is rubbish, if taken too seriously.'

The talent can't be learned, or developed, contrary to propaganda of "feel-good" new age punks, can't be nurtured, it can only be accepted. It makes it's own rules, whether it is about ITM been melodic, chordal or shmordal. Never underestimate the influence of extremely non-traditional, classical ballet and concervatory trained "Riverdance", that sparked world-wide popularity of Irish music.

So boredom from listening of amateurs on CD is predictable. Amateurs should not record CD's, they have to play it together and have fun.

I wish for existence of Talent-meter, with some grades.

By all means, everybody learn to play instruments, as different as possible and join in a party, but by all of those means, be reasonable and don't play for people, unless asked exactly three times. It includes CDs, Youtube, C.net tune page and the rest.

There is Russian proverb: "Measure 7 times to cut once".

P.S.

My 6 year old just told me the music is rhythm. Hmm. She strongly dislikes me playing my English, but jumps to dancing every time I pick up accordion or ukulele. There you have it. And who's to say that MY little one is wrong? Anyone to challenge her?

Be warned. ;)

 

 

This has got to be the most ungrateful posting I have ever seen since all my time on Concertina .net .

People have submitted recordings for other people to hear,they were submitted not to show their ability with the instrument necessarilly, but to let other listen to their playing for FREE. For someone now to say they should have kept quite and not bothered is a disgrace. Henks page has been one of the successes of this site it is an absolute must for beginners.

I have not had a good week and a fall has put me out of concertina action for a week or so.

This posting has just about capped the whole lot off.

When your daughter starts to play an instrument you may find that being patient,helpful,encouraging and praiseworthy are the necessary requirements

for improvement.As many on this site have proved to me.

Al

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Regardless of instrument, I find most Irish 'sessions' feature boring, mindless, hyper repetitive reel-to-reel wallpaper music. Although I'm Irish, I much prefer Scottish sessions, which usually have a nice mix of airs and dances and a broader range of tempos. :P

 

Maybe some sessions are too much concentrating on fast tunes. A lot of people think that is the typical Irish music. But Irish music also has its slow airs and similar variations you find in scottish sessions. People could make it more interesting by mixing irish music with ffidl ffadl from Wales, strathspeys from scotland, jimnaskazou from brittany and even slip jigs from the netherlands. It is strange that to a certain degree the people expect you to play the fast reels and jigs only so they can clap your hands stamp their feet and shout yeehaa. A similar strange thing is what I noticed when I was in Ireland in May 2000. In the Queens hotel in Ennis, I was at a CD presentation of Joe Ryan on fiddle and Gerdie Commane on concertina. They played some very nice slow airs, but to my surprise none of those were on the cd, so I asked myself, why are people selecting these popular reels and jigs all the time? (In the mean time I can still recommend this CD to anybody who likes irish concertina music).

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