38-button Vs 30-button Anglo

[bill_mchale]

I think the number of buttons needed will depend greatly on the style of your playing. I know that Micheal O'Raghallaigh definitely uses some of the extra buttons that a 38 button can provide (but he can also play a 30 button better than I will ever hope to play). Meanwhile, as Frank and some others pointed out, a lot of players, even great players use but a small fraction of the buttons available to him. If you ever get a chance, watch Chris Droney play. In his older style of playing along the G row (which IIRC is similar to the style taught by Frank Edgley's concertina tutor) it seems he never chooses a button off the G row unless the note isn't available on the G row. I suspect he could play pretty much everything he plays on a 15 button concertina.. provided they were the right 15 buttons... heck maybe he would only need 10 buttons ).

 

I remember when a friend and I were ordering our Suttners, my friend wrote to Tim Collins to ask him about why he played the 38 button; IIRC his answer was because that was the instrument available at the time and that a 30 button would suit him.

 

As I ponder my own playing (limited as it is to 50 or 60 tunes), I believe everything I play could probably be played with 10 buttons on the left hand and and 7 on the right hand side (6 if I gave up some accidents...).

 

--

Bill

[hjcjones]

For "English" style, it's not just the additional chord options which are useful, but more opportunities to play a phrase in the same direction, and so avoid a change of bellows direction which would break up the rhythm. Sometimes its good to be able to hold the chord for longer.

 

I play a 40-key C/G, a 31-key G/D, and a 30-key F/C. On the 40-key I make use of nearly all the extra buttons, although admittedly there are a few which don't get touched very often. I have several tunes which when played on the 30 or 31-key boxes involve compromises which I feel are less musical.

 

For example, my arrangement of "Battle of the Somme", which starts with a descending run down the scale on the left hand played against the tune on the right hand, just doesn't work on the 31-key. All the notes are there, and it's not impossible to play it, but it flows much better and more naturally with more buttons to choose from.

[david_boveri]

i cant really see the need for very many extra buttons in irish music. sometimes it would be nice to have an f# push for both octaves on the left hand lower octave as well as both low Cs in the pull. when playing in A i want a low, pull C# as well as a pull E. i would sorely miss the 3rd row as it is, as i use both low As. i would just about kill for a low D on the left hand side below the D already there, but i dont want to give up my A as that is where some 30 buttons have a D.

 

my forays into classical music have been disappointing because there are certain chords i cannot hit, in any direction.

 

i have talked with one person, who does not play irish music, who was very amazed to find out how much money we pay for instruments with only 30 buttons, as he would and has paid the same for ~40 buttons.

 

i do know that concertina players in south africa do use the extra buttons for their chords.

 

with all that being said, there is so much that you can do with a 30 button concertina. even where i can use a full chord, i hardly ever do, because i dont like the sound. a lot of people like to drop the third, and i do too, but very often i like to keep the third and either drop the first or drop the fifth. i think it adds a lot of tension, something which you might not think of doing if you had so many extra buttons.

Edited April 17, 2008 by david_boveri

[m3838]

There is always a compromize between ingenuity and convinience.

 

As for 10 buttons for Irish music:

I'm sure there are brilliant one row accordion players of Irish music, with who most of us (if not all) will not compare anyhow, no matter how many more buttons we have. Chuckle or not, Noel Hill's technique is not a standard, and if you are in doubt, ask him. All you need is one row instrument in correct key, say, in D.

 

I alwyas chuckle myself, when I hear that today's technique is changed and the Irish music is played differently, so you need extra buttons etc.

Majority of Irish player today are exruciatingly boring, with or without that "modern" tecnique. Same goes for any instrument in any style.

When discussing such topics, why don't we first encompass the goals, for which a particular system may, in our view, work better?

Again and again, when someone says "I use all the buttons on my 38 button Anglo..." why don't you stop right there and listen to such music? You may find such playing overly heavy, or on the other side you may find 30 button overly choppy.

[david_boveri]

There is always a compromize between ingenuity and convinience.

 

As for 10 buttons for Irish music:

I'm sure there are brilliant one row accordion players of Irish music, with who most of us (if not all) will not compare anyhow, no matter how many more buttons we have. Chuckle or not, Noel Hill's technique is not a standard, and if you are in doubt, ask him. All you need is one row instrument in correct key, say, in D.

 

I alwyas chuckle myself, when I hear that today's technique is changed and the Irish music is played differently, so you need extra buttons etc.

Majority of Irish player today are exruciatingly boring, with or without that "modern" tecnique. Same goes for any instrument in any style.

When discussing such topics, why don't we first encompass the goals, for which a particular system may, in our view, work better?

Again and again, when someone says "I use all the buttons on my 38 button Anglo..." why don't you stop right there and listen to such music? You may find such playing overly heavy, or on the other side you may find 30 button overly choppy.

 

the biggest advantage of having 30 buttons (as opposed to ten or twenty) is flexibility. you dont have to use the buttons, but you can. there are some buttons i hardly ever use, but when i want them to be there, it would be very frustrating if they were gone.

 

sometimes i like to play in c, completely along the row, just as i have been told my great aunt used to. sometimes i like to play across the rows. sometimes i like to play in some weird keys like c#. and sometimes i like to have fun trying out classical music.

 

my goal for any system on the concertina is to give me options so i can have fun. give me a toy accordion and i can make music on it. give me a stagi, and i can make just as good music on it as i can on any other concertina. sometimes it is more fun to play a 20 dollar accordion toy than it is an old jeffries. whenever i pick up my toy (one row) accordion or my stagi, i end up learning something about bellows control or musicality that i could not have learned from a nicer instrument. the opposite is true as well.

 

i dont know how much it matters how the music sounds, because it all depends on how much fun you have playing it. sometimes it is fun to play all the chords you can, even if it sounds horrible, because it is challenging. concertinas (and other niche instruments) are wonderful because the best instruments can be so much cheaper than the best quality of other instruments, so amateur players can get world class craftmanship that they would never be able to afford if they played some instruments. to ask for a recording is to measure musicianship and artistic merit, which may not be the intended goal of a particular player.

 

i dont care too much how many buttons a professional has, because obviously ten buttons is enough to make music. miniature concertinas rarely have more (or even) 10 buttons, and i think that one could spend a lifetime playing music on one of those. i just think the idea of having extra buttons is fascinating, and exciting. my next concertina has 30 buttons, i really dont have any use for any more buttons, but i think they would be fun. sometimes 38 would be fun. sometimes 10. as a matter of fun, playfulness, and creativity, i cannot think of one particular system that is definitive or better than another.

 

-----

 

you say that the majority of irish players today are excruciatingly boring. that seems a little harsh. what about: james kelly, coaimhin o raghallaigh, paddy keenan, joe burke, katherine mcevoy, liam o'flynn, martin hayes, paddy o'brien, fintan vallely, micheal o raghallaigh, mick o'brien, tony mcmahon, tommy peoples, the mulcaheys, seamus tansey, larry nugent and hundreds of other musicians? on youtube alone there are dozens and dozens of amateur musicians that are dynamic, exciting, fresh and yet traditional.

 

boring is so vague and subjective--even my favorite musicians bore me when i am bored of them. do you have anything more meaningful to say about the state of irish music today? i would say that much music created today is missing some of the specialness and rhythm and personality of field recordings from several decades ago, but i wouldnt say that the music now is boring. if anything, i would say it can be much too exciting--too much energy being released and not enough tension held back. if i was to use the word boring i would say that much of my favorite music is very boring in comparison to the music i assume you are referring to--there are no bass drums and electric guitars, no african rhythms or fast tempos, and especially no drum kit. for example, mrs. crotty singing a song is extremely boring by all convential standards, but to me, that is art, that is music, and boring is just fine with me.

Edited April 18, 2008 by david_boveri

[richard]

Hello

 

If you observe this video of Tim Collins I believe you can see him using some of the "extra" buttons on his Jeffries, and how they fit into and enhance his playing approach.

 

 

 

Richard

[RP3]

A lot of the replies have touched on key issues both in favor and against the 38 button instruments (weight, need for chords, it was the only thing available, etc.) but I don't think anyone has mentioned crowded keyboard. I have big fingers and they don't handle 38 button layouts well. I made the mistake some years ago of changing my order with Suttner from a 30 button to a 38 button A/E. Big mistake! So if you think you "need" 38 buttons for whatever reason, do make an effort to try several 38 button instruments to be sure that you are comfortable with the button sizes and layout -- to see if it fits your hands.

 

On a different part of this same thread I can remember conversations with Noel Hill where he has said that 30 buttons is plenty and more aren't needed. Now I expect that his response was from his point of view and playing style. And he has backed this up by playing tunes in a wide variety of keys on the same 30 button C/G instrument. But we're not Noel Hill and styles do differ and players who do a lot of chord work may find a 38 button instrument offers more chord opportunities than a 30 button -- taking into account the push and pull issues of the instrument's layout.

 

So it seems that there is no right or wrong answer to the original question. It boils down to style, preferences, and instrument availability. We all must go our own ways on this one.

 

Ross Schlabach

[Chris Timson]

So it seems that there is no right or wrong answer to the original question. It boils down to style, preferences, and instrument availability. We all must go our own ways on this one.

Absolutely.

 

Surprising how many concertina questions end this way. 30 or 38 button. G/D or C/G. English or anglo. Crane or MacCann. Traditional reeds or accordion reeds. Wooden ends or metal ends. You pays your money and you takes your choice.

 

Chris

[DD Reed]

So it seems that there is no right or wrong answer to the original question. It boils down to style, preferences, and instrument availability. We all must go our own ways on this one.

Absolutely.

 

Surprising how many concertina questions end this way. 30 or 38 button. G/D or C/G. English or anglo. Crane or MacCann. Traditional reeds or accordion reeds. Wooden ends or metal ends. You pays your money and you takes your choice.

 

Chris

 

Right. But it doesn't hurt to ask around before you plonk down your big bucks. This is what this kind of forum is for.

[Woody]

So it seems that there is no right or wrong answer to the original question. It boils down to style, preferences, and instrument availability. We all must go our own ways on this one.

Absolutely.

 

Surprising how many concertina questions end this way. 30 or 38 button. G/D or C/G. English or anglo. Crane or MacCann. Traditional reeds or accordion reeds. Wooden ends or metal ends. You pays your money and you takes your choice.

 

Chris

Now if everybody made the same choice and played the same way - that truly would be boring.

[m3838]

you say that the majority of irish players today are excruciatingly boring. that seems a little harsh

 

Considering the popularity of Irish music today, a true phenomena, a dozen of the semi-pros and pros that you mentioned are just a fraction of a fraction of a percent. "Hundreds of others", that are assumingly good, is just vague remark, and Youtube clearly shows that majority of those posting display the same wanna-be attitude. Which is understandable and fine, but doesn't make their music any more exciting.

This "wanna-be" attitude is sole reason for questions about suitable number of buttons, or in-row vs. across-the-row fingering, what key etc.

I'm not big admirer of Irish music, nor I am a "disliker" of it. But I dismiss the notion that Irish (and any other) music has "standards", researched and set by college professors from across the Ocean. Anything that is played by an Irishman is Irish, and anything Irish that is played by others is others' attempt to be fashionable ( in it's own mini-universe).

And if Irish are divided so they have been killing each other, there you go.

What do we draw from this wisdom ?

Well, the correct way of learning, I guess, would be this:

Oh boy, Noel Hill really ticks me, how can I play like him?

- Well, buy 30 button Anglo (like his) of English conctruction, honky, with real concertina reeds, and go to his workshops.

Question is answered, thank you very much.

Because if you ask, "what is better, 30 or 38 buttons, you have a pile of answers, that will contradict each other, and you'll end up just where you started from. Which is a positive experience, no doubt, but with predictable outcome.

Perhaps reasonable and informative answer is to say, that more buttons give more reversals, and it is useful for bellows control and chordal accompaniment, but whether it is sought after musically - is up in the thin air.

[Chris Timson]

Right. But it doesn't hurt to ask around before you plonk down your big bucks. This is what this kind of forum is for.

True enough. All you have to do is look at the number of posts I've made to realise I've always been happy to bore the pants off anyone who stands still long enough to listen to my opinions. It's just that I react rather badly when (as they do from time to time) someone says something dogmatic, like "if you want to play Irish music on the concertina then it's got to be a 30-button C/G anglo", or "you cannot play the melody as part of a song accompaniment" or a whole load of other foolishnesses.

 

Happy 18th of April, everybody!

 

Chris

[Marien]

I think Anglo is well suited for Bach,.....If you are talking about Irish music, I'm puzzled why do you need more than 10 buttons?

 

Some Bach pieces are simple, some are not. I did not suspect you were playing a chromatized concertina (the one the tunes page). I tried a Robert Schumann piece on the anglo yesterday and it works on a 30 button anglo concertina. I would not try it on a 20 button concertina (if it is not chromatized). See me struggling on youtube (

). While some people might say you really need a chromatic concertina to play serious classical music, but like you say for Bach, this kind of music fits the anglo well (or doesn't it?).

 

You are basically right that the irish music needs less keys. The origins are pentatonic, so you could play all 5 notes and even one octave note with a 3 button concertina. I wonder on which side they would put 2 and on which side 1 button. But no kidding, I was just referring to what people in Ireland tell you when you ask what kind of concertina you need for playing concertina in sessions. And if you visit the better sessions in Ireland, you will notice that they may play not just in D sharp. If you want to join, it might come in handy to have a row with accidentals.

 

 

Cheers

[Brian Peters]

For "English" style, it's not just the additional chord options which are useful, but more opportunities to play a phrase in the same direction, and so avoid a change of bellows direction which would break up the rhythm. Sometimes its good to be able to hold the chord for longer.

Good point from Howard. I realise the original questioner was asking about Irish music but the extra buttons come into their own when playing chorded English style. I have 40 buttons and, of the additional ones, use 2 LH ones (F and C reversals) and one RH one (D/E reversal) a lot, a couple of others very occasionally, and the two pairs underneath the G rows not at all (difficult to finger and they have a poor tone anyway).

 

Chris made a point above about the importance of the G/A reversal buttons (top row) which I agree with absolutely - two of the most important buttons on the box, both LH and RH, to the way I play. But isn't the presence of the G/A reversal dependent on whether you have Jeffries or Wheatstone system, not on whether you have more than 30 buttons?

Brian

[mike averill]

WHen I first this read this I couldnt really put my mind as to wether I play the standard 30 or the extra 8 for irish tunes but I gave it some thought this afternoon and looked in a book to see what the standard 30 key has.

 

The left hand four extras :

Bb/low Bb essential for tunes like ALices reel - I know 30 keys have the low Bb suck else where but the position is more comfy and the low Bb on the end of the mid row leaves space for the pull C# on the third row also used a lot. The push Bb is also good for rolls around g#

F#/G# end of inner row - brilliant for ornaments on G and A - essential

Eb/E inside of the inner row - I went years with out play this button recently found it can be very useful for ornements against E and C minor arpegios in hornpipes - Screw the nut comes to mind

F/ C thumb - I dont think I use this for irish - although I do for other dialects

The right hand:

d/c top of the inner row - not used alot as both in the same direction on the left ( right handers might like this button) but useful to ease finger tangle on occaision; the heavy jig " the kings fancy" in Bb comes to mind.

f#/highEb top mid row - the f# is good for ornaments on G - not much call for the high Eb.

f/e bottom end mid row - useful on occasion but not used too much for irish ( again righthanders might like this e but for me the left hand one always wins)- more a fixer when play chorded left hand

high f#/ high f inside of the inner row - has to be the least used of the extras but having it frees the bottom of the inner row (where it is on the 30 key) for a high bb/g# - the suck g# is the best for playing anything in A.

 

Overall I think 38 lets you ornament properly rather than having to play some of the quirk combinations often heard. I guess its a case of less need for the phantom button becuase you have the real button.

 

More choice when playing away from the home keys is also useful - a 38 key C/G is good for the flat keys so no need to carry a second Bb/F.

[Nigel]

And if Irish are divided so they have been killing each other, there you go.

I don't think flippant remarks like this are helpful or necessary. Are the Troubles at all relevant to the choice between 30 or 38 buttons?

 

Nigel

[Aogan]

To get back to the original question, and considering that the original poster seemed to be referring to Suttner concertinas in particular - If you never encounter a 38 key instrument, you'll be more than happy with a 30 key, but there are one or two (and only one or two for my playing) note options that the 38 key layout offers that, once you get used to, make it difficult to return to the 30 key layout. Specifically those notes are an F# on the push on the left hand side, which is truly fantastic! An E on the pull on the left hand side -great for Eminor, E major, and A minor/major chords. And a G# on the pull which makes playing in A major more of a pleasure rather than a chore.

 

Also - when ordering a Suttner (or any made to order instrument), I think it's worth the relatively small extra cost to go for the 38 key over the 30 (as well as the wooden ends I might add.). It's different if you're on the lookout for a quality old instrument where you're best advised to just buy the best one available, as they don't really come up that often.

[chiton1]

To get back to the original question, and considering that the original poster seemed to be referring to Suttner concertinas in particular - If you never encounter a 38 key instrument, you'll be more than happy with a 30 key, but there are one or two (and only one or two for my playing) note options that the 38 key layout offers that, once you get used to, make it difficult to return to the 30 key layout. Specifically those notes are an F# on the push on the left hand side, which is truly fantastic! An E on the pull on the left hand side -great for Eminor, E major, and A minor/major chords. And a G# on the pull which makes playing in A major more of a pleasure rather than a chore.

 

Also - when ordering a Suttner (or any made to order instrument), I think it's worth the relatively small extra cost to go for the 38 key over the 30 (as well as the wooden ends I might add.). It's different if you're on the lookout for a quality old instrument where you're best advised to just buy the best one available, as they don't really come up that often.

 

Hee Aegon,

 

I just sold an 38 button Jeffries to a Breton friend of mine (Jean Pierre Le Meur, you probably know him from Tocane). And sent your above comments to him.

Only am I mistaken that when you say that 1 or 2 extra note options are a bonus on a 38 key AC, you actually numbered 3?!

Hermann