38-button Vs 30-button Anglo

[DD Reed]

Hi there to all of you.

 

This is my first post, and it's probably been debated before, but I'm curious about the advantages of the 38-button vs the 30 button. Does it make that much of a difference ? I notice that top players like Micheal O'Raghallaigh, Tim Collins, Edel Fox, Padraig Rynne, to name a few, all play 38-buttons. I am not sure about Noel Hill, though. Unless you play a 38-button Suttner you are not part of the cream, seems like (just kidding). Any thoughts on the subject ? Not all new manufacturers make them either. Thank you.

[Marien]

it's just what you want and higly subjective. With 20 buttons you can play a simple Bach piece as Micha shows, but the instrument is limited. With 26 buttons, so I heard people say, you can play Irish music. And, as I also heard people say. With 28 or 30 buttons you can play chromatic. But, what is chromatic of you have to think about pushing and pulling and about where to put your left hand pinky for playing a certain note? One step further, with 38 buttons you may have more freedom to play accidentals, for example, play a high D on pull on a C/G concertina (not available on a 30 button concertina). So far for the number of buttons and the scales. Once you know to find the keys it will be pleasant (and addictive) to play a 38 keys concertina.

 

Furthermore you may have a preferred music style that could be relevant for your choice. if you want to play all the preludes by Chopin (or other music that contains all notes you can imagine), do not try that on a 20 button concertina. But if you just want to play 2 or 3 chord blues, cajun or tex mex, you do not have to master a 72 buttons bandoneon. It may be good to think about the basic tuning of the concertina you want (C/G, A/D, G/D,...).

 

I have been editing this to try removing the other typos

Edited April 17, 2008 by marien

[Greg Jowaisas]

Each instrument has to be judged on its own merits. In the past there seemed to be a preference for 30b or 31b instruments as being the "ideal" combination of weight and range for Irish music. That is not to say that a good 38b instrument isn't capable of handling difficult reels at session speeds in the hands of a capable player. Extra reeds do mean extra weight. Extra reeds can mean less than ideal placement in the reed pan and a compromise in volume and sound. But not necessarilly so. Obviously Edel Fox does very well with her 38b Jeffries and I don't hear Michail O Rallaghaigh encumbered by his 38b Suttner.

 

Noel hill plays a 30b Linota as his main instrument and has used varying Jeffries over the years.

 

Players like Michail O Rallaghaigh have a chordal style that is complemented by the extra note choices on a 38b. (It is not so much a choice of different notes but duplication of notes in and out that offer more choices).

 

A good playing instrument is a joy and they can come in all different sizes and configurations.

 

Good luck,

 

Greg

Edited April 17, 2008 by Greg Jowaisas

[DD Reed]

Each instrument has to be judged on its own merits. In the past there seemed to be a preference for 30b or 31b instruments as being the "ideal" combination of weight and range for Irish music. That is not to say that a good 38b instrument isn't capable of handling difficult reels at session speeds in the hands of a capable player. Extra reeds does can mean extra weight. Extra reeds can mean less than ideal placement in the reed pan and a compromise in volume and sound. But not necessarilly so. Obviously Edel Fox does very well with her 38b Jeffries and I don't hear Michail O Rallaghaigh encumbered by his 38b Suttner.

 

Noel hill plays a 30b Linota as his main instrument and has used varying Jeffries over the years.

 

Players like Michail O Rallaghaigh have a chordal style that is complemented by the extra note choices on a 38b. (It is not so much a choice of different notes but duplication of notes in and out that offer more choices).

 

A good playing instrument is a joy and they can come in all different sizes and configurations.

 

Good luck,

 

Greg

[DD Reed]

Thanks for the info. I actually play a 31 c/g and am quite happy with it. I was just wondering wether the 38-button was a lot better, with obviously more possibilites in the phrasing and chords. I'll have to try one I guess.

[DD Reed]

Sorry, Greg, I obviously got tangled up in this reply thing. I wonder how Noel Hill feels about 38-buttons. Doesw anybody know ?

[m3838]

With 20 buttons you can play a simple Bach piece as Micha shows

I wish I could be so ingenious as to do as stated above, but no, my 20 button Lachenal is "chromatized", it has all the notes of chromatic scale. In C it has normal range of 3 octaves, and the further you go into shaprs/flats, the less the available range is, coming down to 1.5 octaves.

And I found Bach to be relatively simple all the way through, or it may be just the layout of concertina that makes fingering easy compared to violin?

I think Anglo is well suited for Bach, and will offer very interesting phrazing, but it probably does need to be more than 30 buttons, unless you care enough to "improve" Bach, fitting it to existing possibilities of the instrument. In which case you only need 24 or 26 buttons. If you are talking about Irish music, I'm puzzled why do you need more than 10 buttons?

People follow some trails if they see other people follow some trails.

But some people follow other trails if they see other people follow some trails.

[Bruce McCaskey]

I don't know that I've ever heard Noel comment on a concertina that had more than 31 buttons. My impression is that for the style of music he plays, he doesn't consider it a useful advantage to have more buttons. I've seen him pick up a few extra-button models and play them though and he seemed quite familiar with their layout.

 

I've not made an effort to count the total but I know that Gearóid Ó hAllmhuráin plays a Jeffries Anglo that has a generous supply of buttons.

 

I'm getting a 36-button concertina in a few weeks so I'll soon have the chance to explore its potential over 30-button models. I don't know that it's something I'll rush into though. I have both Wheatstone and Jeffries pattern instruments now, plus one with Colin's own slight variation. In an effort to avoid overtaxing my aging mental abilities, rather than explore the available fingering variations I've been using a fingering approach that minimizes the impact when switching between instruments.

 

I note that you're in Washington state and I'm curious as to where. There's a small cluster of us in the Seattle area and a few others around the state.

 

Bruce

[Lawrence Reeves]

I suppose the added keys and reed pans could add another variable. The added mass "might" effect overall tone. I also wonder if the main reason the players you mention in the post have 38 keyed instruments because that was what was available at the time they needed an instrument. Gearoid's C /G Jeffries is a 44 key, a little heavy, and also I believe that positions of reeds under the palm of the hand are different from a 30 or 38 keyed instrument. This could effect tone and volume. Maybe we could hear from someone on the forum that makes instruments for an opinion.

[Frank Edgley]

I got a 36 button Dipper in the mid 80s. I learned a few tunes using the extra buttons which were duplicates of what would ordinarily be on a 30 button, but offered those notes in the opposite direction. There were very few tunes that I used the extra buttons for. Most of these tunes could be played fairly easily on a 30 button with a few changes of fingering. There are probably 2 or 3 tunes that I play that the extra buttons make the tune significantly easier. Considering the fact that there are so many Irish tunes it is not really significant. Often, these tunes can be played quite effectively if you are not slavish to the written note. I now use a 30 button of my own making for much of my playing.

The thirty button anglo concertina is the standard. Billy McComisky told me that the 30 button Jeffries was preferred over the 38 button by Irish players, but there were so few made that most players who used 38 button instruments did so out of necessity rather than by design. When I tuned Gearoid OhAllmuirhain's 40+ button concertina he only had me tune the notes he used. The extra buttons were not used. This was no more than the standard 30 buttons.

Bottom line: you must be happy with the instrument you order, but there is nothing limiting with a 30 button instrument. I used to make a 24 button instrument and would probably do so again if the customer was persistent, but the overwhelming myth is that more is better.

[Chris Timson]

I'd like to offer a slightly different viewpoint. I play a 38 button Jeffries G/D for English and French music. Mostly I don't use the extra buttons, but for some tunes they help a lot. For instance, Waltz Bruno, with its oscillating B/A and G/A sequences is made much easier by a button with the A and G reversed. On balance I'd much rather have a 38 than a 30. When you need those reverses, you need 'em. The extra weight doesn't bother me because I play sitting down, and so far as speed is concerned, well, it's faster than I can play.

 

Still, as I say, that's my experience with non-green music. Your mileage will probably vary.

 

Chris

[DavidFR]

Hi there to all of you.

 

This is my first post, and it's probably been debated before, but I'm curious about the advantages of the 38-button vs the 30 button. Does it make that much of a difference ? I notice that top players like Micheal O'Raghallaigh, Tim Collins, Edel Fox, Padraig Rynne, to name a few, all play 38-buttons. I am not sure about Noel Hill, though. Unless you play a 38-button Suttner you are not part of the cream, seems like (just kidding). Any thoughts on the subject ? Not all new manufacturers make them either. Thank you.

 

In English-style music I think more buttons are generally preferred, giving you more chord options in both directions. Both Tom Kruskal and John Roberts play 38-button instruments, I believe. My suspicion, however, is that they don't use all the buttons and could probably do just as well with a 30-34 button instrument, if those buttons were the ones they use in their playing. But I don't think it would make any sense to limit the capabilities of an instrument in that way.

[Mikefule]

You can now buy a 21 speed mountain bike with front and rear suspension. I ride cross country on a unicycle, and on the road on a fixed wheel bicycle. I have owned (and own) various chromatic harmonicas, but I far prefer playing a normal 20 reed in C. The best car I ever had was a Citroen 2CV6.

 

Complexity sells; simplicity is often more fun.

 

If you want a fully chromatic squeeze box over the whole range, then life offers you the choice of the English concertina, or the piano accordian. To me, it is the slightly irrational finger-logic of the Anglo that appeals. It is not just a machine; it has a "soul". Sometimes you have to fight it, sometimes persuade it.

 

The more buttons you add, the less prominent that character might be. But each of us will draw the line somewhere different. there would be hundreds of tunes you could play on a 10 button box. there are hundreds more you can play on a 20 button. With 30, you can add complex harmonies. With 38 you can do all sorts of stuff. With 68, it might no longer be an Anglo in some people's eyes. What floats your boat may not float mine.

 

I've sometimes wondered why they don't just do a straight forward CGD or GDA anglo, withthe reed arrangement consistent across all 3 rows.

[DD Reed]

Well, all very good points, and very informative. I remember hesitating between the two options when I started out, and my experience with the accordion helped me: switching fron B/C to C#/D, it was all about bellows reversal. I found out that the switch was extremely beneficial to my mastery of the bellows (although I'm not the best of players). Likewise, learning on a 30-button can teach you a thing or two about bellows reversal, perhaps making you a better player than if you had had a 38-button as your first instrument. Then should I decide to go for a 38-button in a few years, it'll be all gravy. I'm of course talking mostly about Irish music, Chris, but I don't want to circumscribe the debate. The other consideration of course is price: those new 38-buttons can be quite expensive.

[David Levine]

I've been playing ITM on a six-key flute (not an eight-key) and and a 30 button concertina for over twenty years now.

If I have a problem with a tune it's my fault and not because I don't have the right instrument.

Edited April 17, 2008 by cocusflute

[Chris Timson]

In English-style music I think more buttons are generally preferred, giving you more chord options in both directions. Both Tom Kruskal and John Roberts play 38-button instruments, I believe. My suspicion, however, is that they don't use all the buttons and could probably do just as well with a 30-34 button instrument, if those buttons were the ones they use in their playing. But I don't think it would make any sense to limit the capabilities of an instrument in that way.

John Kirkpatrick has told me he would be lost with anything smaller than his 40-button Wheatstone layout C/G Crabb, and indeed if you watch him play his fingers are all over the instrument. But of course, JK is the nearest thing we have to a concertina deity

 

Chris

[Rod]

Hi there to all of you.

 

This is my first post, and it's probably been debated before, but I'm curious about the advantages of the 38-button vs the 30 button. Does it make that much of a difference ? I notice that top players like Micheal O'Raghallaigh, Tim Collins, Edel Fox, Padraig Rynne, to name a few, all play 38-buttons. I am not sure about Noel Hill, though. Unless you play a 38-button Suttner you are not part of the cream, seems like (just kidding). Any thoughts on the subject ? Not all new manufacturers make them either. Thank you.

 

Anglo 30 key or 38 key My experience consists of a brief spell on a cheap and cheerful 20 key followed by over 30 years of fun on my 36 key Anglo. I have never yearned for more keys and doubt that after all these years I would use them if I had them. I don't need any more and there are just a few keys which I very seldom find a use for. The style of music to be played must of course have some bearing on the matter. (I chuckled at the suggestion that Irish music should require no more than 10 keys.) I suspect that there may be aspiring musicians who are attracted to an instrument with more keys in much the same way as there may be motorists who in spite of statutary speed restrictions are impressed to drive a perfectly adequate little car whose speedometer is calibrated to suggest that 120mph is a realistic possiblilty.

[Mikefule]

(I chuckled at the suggestion that Irish music should require no more than 10 keys.)

 

10 keys, 20 reeds, identical to the standard harmonica. I don't play Irish, but I have played English music for the Morris, busking, and at folk clubs (as a member, not a guest!) over many years. A 10 key concertina would of course be limiting, but not ridiculously so. Listen to what can be achieved on single-row melodeons, including by some Irish musicians. A single row melodeon is a close equivalent to a hypothetical 10 key concertina in terms of range and layout.

 

But if you want to know what's the very best, look at what the very best use.