Duets - Are They Really Hard Tolearn?

[Paul Read]

There is a lot of talk lately re big duets on ebay. I've had my hands on McCanns, Cranes and Jeffries but I've no idea how to play one. Currently I have a lovely 39-button McCann on ebay: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie...E:IT&ih=008 which is a lovely instrument but worth much less than an inferior anglo. I know the reason for this is usually given as the difficulty of learning the duet but is it really that much more difficult than, say, an English?

[DaveH]

I don't think Duets are inherently harder to learn but if, like me, you started life playing an anglo, then changing to a totally different system requires a lot of mental athletics to forget the muscle memory and learn anew. Of course that is not to say that its impossible, I'm sure there are many who can do this easily - just not me

[cassqueeze]

In principle I think duets should be the easiest instrument to learn - no alternating right hand/ left hand or push/pull to get the scale. I play an anglo mainly and also a crane duet. Its fingering is much more logical that the McCann system. I make considerable use of it in trying out new tunes from printed sources, in whichever key they are written, often then transposing to the anglo or melodeon when I've learnt a tune.

There's a good looking Crane currently on ebay.

[JimLucas]

Currently I have a lovely 39-button McCann on ebay: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie...E:IT&ih=008 which is a lovely instrument but worth much less than an inferior anglo. I know the reason for this is usually given as the difficulty of learning the duet....

Given by whom? My perception is that duets are priced lower because they're less popular, but that the popularity has nothing to do with difficulty, only with mass-media perceptions of "coolness"... or lack thereof. Other factors, though I think much less significant, are the difficulty in most areas of finding a teacher and the difficulty in finding one for a hands-on "trial run".

 

...but is it really that much more difficult than, say, an English?

No, not at all. However, it does depend on what you try to play on it.

 

I suppose that some folks may be frustrated by their first encounters with duets simply because they expect to do more with them right away... e.g., full chordal arrangements, where on an English or anglo they'd be happy to just pick out a melody. I know that's what I did, though in my case it wasn't just trying to play arrangements, but trying to play arrangements that weren't really suited to the particular instrument (at least not at my initial skill level).

[ragtimer]

I know the reason for this is usually given as the difficulty of learning the duet but is it really that much more difficult than, say, an English?

Duets are actually easier to learn to play just the melody -- and you can do it with one hand! I really enjoy playing fast tunes with just my RH.

What makes Duets seem difficult is the expectation that you will play accompaniment of some sort with the other hand. And of course you want to do that.

 

I say: learn to play some tunes first, then start addding a few harmony notes with the other hand, then work up to full bass and chordds, then work on countermelodies and other indepndent notes.

 

Finally, try reading piano music on two clefs, starting with a hymn book. If you can play such stuff as written, you'vve arrived -- but don't be in a hurry.

--Mike K.

[Paul Read]

Currently I have a lovely 39-button McCann on ebay: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie...E:IT&ih=008 which is a lovely instrument but worth much less than an inferior anglo. I know the reason for this is usually given as the difficulty of learning the duet....

Given by whom? My perception is that duets are priced lower because they're less popular, but that the popularity has nothing to do with difficulty, only with mass-media perceptions of "coolness"... or lack thereof. Other factors, though I think much less significant, are the difficulty in most areas of finding a teacher and the difficulty in finding one for a hands-on "trial run".

 

By whom? Good question. I guess it is really my impression from past discussions and as such, the opinions of some, not all, respondents. The other general opinion (picked up by me!) is that the Jeffries system is the hardest to learn. You wouldn't have though so to hear Big Nick Robertshaw play it though. He could make that thing sing. I still fondly remember his version of 'Whiter Shade of Pale'.

Edited April 15, 2008 by Paul Read

[m3838]

I also had the impression that Duet is more difficult to learn.

One hand at a time actually comes easier, I agree. I thought of using it like an English, but having a Duet threw me off, it really needs to be played like a Duet. Now that was difficult! So my impression was that Duets need carefull approach, with playing etudes, scales etc. Proper study, in other words. Now with that proper study, what is the outcome? Nobody knows. For many people it may not worth it, a proper study can be better had with professional piano teachers, right? Especially if to consider that pianos are larger, louder, universal and less expencive.

It also could be that musical culture, of which Duet can be part, has died out, and instead Concertina World is ruled by Anglo, accepted as the instrument for very popular nowadays Irish music.

[Paul Read]

I also had the impression that Duet is more difficult to learn.

One hand at a time actually comes easier, I agree. I thought of using it like an English, but having a Duet threw me off, it really needs to be played like a Duet. Now that was difficult! So my impression was that Duets need carefull approach, with playing etudes, scales etc. Proper study, in other words. Now with that proper study, what is the outcome? Nobody knows. For many people it may not worth it, a proper study can be better had with professional piano teachers, right? Especially if to consider that pianos are larger, louder, universal and less expencive.

It also could be that musical culture, of which Duet can be part, has died out, and instead Concertina World is ruled by Anglo, accepted as the instrument for very popular nowadays Irish music.

Do you mean THE instrument or THE free reed instrument? I hate to say this on this forum but I would suspect that Irish session afficionados would say THE instrument is Fiddle, or perhaps whistle. Now for English music....................... (OK the melodeon - but concertinas could be second!)

[Dirge]

I'd second nearly all of the above, especially Jim's comments.

 

I think many come to duets through folk music and buy them as second instruments. Because it is a second instrument serious practice time is not allotted so they don't make anything of the new toy. Then, human nature being what it is, some of them sell it on telling their friends what an impossible thing it was.

 

I can't see that there is anything more incomprehensible about a 60 key Maccan than a 30 key Anglo. Both keyboards have to be learned by heart. Cranes, Haydens and English are very predictable so, hopefully, quicker to learn the basics. With all of them you have to get past the stage of having to think where the next button is before you can play decently, anyway.

 

I've only come across 2 Jeffries players and both did so because they'd found the instruments somewhere; no choice involved, really. (One was Gavin Atkin). I don't think anyone who does the preliminary inquiries would dream of going out looking for one. I very much doubt they're harder to play; it's just there are few instruments, they tend to be smaller, sellers attach a 'Jeffries' premium. Why bother? I suspect most are duet player's second instruments bought on a whim... see the paragraph before last...

 

Your 39 key, though Paul; well it's the duet equivalent of a 20 key anglo I suppose. Even the '46 keys are enough for me' merchants would walk round it, and that's what you're struggling against with this one.

[Crane Driver]

I'd guess that the idea that Duets are harder to learn started with people who tried to switch from English or Anglo to Duet, or to take up the Duet as a second box. The proper conclusion should probably have been that your second concertina system is hard to learn, as you have to unlearn the first one. I had the great good fortune to find a Crane Duet as my first concertina, way back when (took me ages to find out what it was), and though I've since tried Anglo, English and MacCann Duet, the difficulty of learning a different system hardly seemed worth it, given that the end-product sounded so similar. I taught myself to play, one hand at a time.

 

Another percieved difficulty is the expectation that Duet players will use the system for really complex, sophisticated music, necessitating months of study. Fine, if that's what you want to play, but you don't have to. I mainly use the Crane for simple song accompanyments and dance tunes. I can read music onto the melody end, but I just fit something in on the other end that seems to suit. It does the job for me.

 

Andrew

[JimLucas]

Duets are actually easier to learn to play just the melody -- and you can do it with one hand!

Or you can do it with both hands... in octaves.

 

What makes Duets seem difficult is the expectation that you will play accompaniment of some sort with the other hand. And of course you want to do that.

But not necessarily all the time. And there are many different kinds of "some sort", including adding harmony also in the right hand.

 

I say: learn to play some tunes first, then start addding a few harmony notes with the other hand, then work up to full bass and chordds, then work on countermelodies and other indepndent notes.

Yep. A reasonable sequence.

 

Finally, try reading piano music on two clefs, starting with a hymn book. If you can play such stuff as written, you'vve arrived -- but don't be in a hurry.

My first attempts with a duet were with a 55-button Maccann. Already able to read music, I tried choral arrangements too early. But one "surprising" thing I found was that the fingering and changes in standard 4-part hymns were far more difficult (for me) than in barbershop quartet arrangements. In the hymns I always seemed to be needing to hit two or three non-adjacent buttons with a single finger -- often my little finger, -- and moving more than one finger at a time. In the barbershop arrangements, I was more often moving only one finger at a time.

[JimLucas]

I'd guess that the idea that Duets are harder to learn started with people who tried to switch from English or Anglo to Duet, or to take up the Duet as a second box. The proper conclusion should probably have been that your second concertina system is hard to learn, as you have to unlearn the first one.

I think that's a misstatement of the process. You don't have to un-learn anything, but you do have to ignore much of what you've learned on the first instrument(s). I.e., you don't have to lose your ability to play the first instrument, but you have to understand at a deep level that the second (or seventeenth) instrument needs to be learned "from scratch" and isn't just a minor variant of what came before.

[kfk'51]

As a bachelor inclined to indulging my whims, though I started on an anglo (Stagi), I later picked up a "cheap" post war english Wheatstone and learned enough to realize it was neither the style nor the "sound" (although the sound of the instrument itself is wonderful) I was looking for so I finally ordered an anglo from Bob Tedrow. While waiting for it I picked up a 55 button Latchenal Maccann and started mucking about with it, and I really like it--I love the fact that you can play a piece on the RH only, and by playing only a drone or double stops on the LH get a nice full sound. I actually think the layout is quite sensible with about 80% of the accidentals where you might expect them. My one abidance has been that I don't try to learn a tune that I already play on a different system (old dog learning the same trick in a different language sort of thing). I've been working on a Bach Bouree (lots of accidentals for learning and a nice bass line) and it hasn't taken long to learn the two parts, although getting them together is taking some time. My personal bigotry is that for most instrumental folk music I really like the anglo but as song accompaniment or for something slow in a minor key, I'm intrigued with the duet. As a ps, I got my Tedrow last week and love it--what a machine!

Kevin

[ragtimer]

Finally, try reading piano music on two clefs, starting with a hymn book. If you can play such stuff as written, you've arrived -- but don't be in a hurry.

My first attempts with a duet were with a 55-button Maccann. Already able to read music, I tried choral arrangements too early. But one "surprising" thing I found was that the fingering and changes in standard 4-part hymns were far more difficult (for me) than in barbershop quartet arrangements. In the hymns I always seemed to be needing to hit two or three non-adjacent buttons with a single finger -- often my little finger, -- and moving more than one finger at a time. In the barbershop arrangements, I was more often moving only one finger at a time.

I agree, that hymns might not be the best place to start, tho I suggested them as practice material. I find that I need more fingers than I was born with, to play legato.

 

In fact, many hymns are hard to play smoothly on a piano keyboard without cheating by using the sustaining pedal. So they are hard to play smoothly on an organ, unless you relieve the hands of the bass part by playing it with the feet.

 

I like barbershop but have never seen an arrangement. It gets pretty chromatic at times. Does anyone sing it in Denmark? --Mike K.

 

edited to repair damage done by the spell checker :-)

Edited April 17, 2008 by ragtimer

[JimLucas]

I like barbershop but have never seen an arrangement. It gets pretty chromatic at times. Does anyone sing it in Denmark?

I don't know how many, but some certainly do.

There's even a Dansk Barbershopforening (Danish Barbershop Union/Association).

 

Edited to add: If you click on "Sanggrupper" in the menu at the left, you should get a list of the singing groups that are members of Dansk Barbershopforening. I see 42 listings, but the 10 marked by asterisks are defunct (ophørt), while those marked with "(S)" are actually Swedish, and I presume the one marked with "(GB)" is British. If I counted right, that still leaves 28 active Danish groups -- plus any which aren't members of the Association -- in a country with a population about half that of New York City.

Edited April 17, 2008 by JimLucas

[Hooves]

There is a lot of talk lately re big duets on ebay. I've had my hands on McCanns, Cranes and Jeffries but I've no idea how to play one. Currently I have a lovely 39-button McCann on ebay: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie...E:IT&ih=008 which is a lovely instrument but worth much less than an inferior anglo. I know the reason for this is usually given as the difficulty of learning the duet but is it really that much more difficult than, say, an English?

 

 

I like the duet: I have a MacCaan and a Crane, I like them both, though I prefer the Crane and have shifted focus to that system away from the Maccaan (which I really liked by the way, until I got my Crane, perhaps if I ever get a Hayden I will like that even more).

 

At first, coming from an anglo, it was hard to not switch bellows when not needed. English, you must remember to alternate left/right hands to get a scale (after struggling with anglo that really was difficult to manage, that may be alot of the discussion on "harder", losing that push/pull habit for each note)

 

In my mind anglo and english are harder than the duets - it took weeks to get anywhere with an anglo other than basic chords, and only hours to play a tune with the Crane. Though with the anglo you can get that nice scale run in one row, and if you ignore your accidental row, you have the benefit of being diatonic (yes, diatonic is an advantage in many tunes/songs).

 

Though I am still an amatuer, and likely will aspire to only an intermediate level with any box as its my third instrument, unlike many who only play concertina.

Edited April 18, 2008 by Hooves

[ragtimer]

I like barbershop but have never seen an arrangement. It gets pretty chromatic at times. Does anyone sing it in Denmark?

I don't know how many, but some certainly do.

There's even a Dansk Barbershopforening (Danish Barbershop Union/Association).

 

Edited to add: . . . If I counted right, that still leaves 28 active Danish groups -- plus any which aren't members of the Association -- in a country with a population about half that of New York City.

OK thanks,, that answers my question -- Barbershop is pretty darned popular in Denmark! Those Danes have good taste.

 

Back on topic, I just yesterday was at The Button Box and as usual, I try to play a scale and a few chords on the various concertinas on the shelves.

 

This year I got the first 6 or 7 notes of a scale on the English, and maybe two chords (and scales) on an ANglo. The first time I picked up a Hayden Duet, I got a scale in 30 seconds and good chords within a minute.

 

Duets, especially Hayden, are very easy to learn, in my opinion!

--Mike K.

[David Barnert]

A duet player, I haven't contributed to this conversation yet. But at the Northeast Concertina Workshop Concert in Amherst on Saturday evening, I addressed it from the stage before I started playing my portion of the program. The concert had started with John Roberts and then Frank Edgley playing Anglos, and then Richard Carlin came out with his English and talked at length about how much harder the English was to play than the Anglo.

 

To the best of my memory, these were my comments:

 

Well, we've heard Anglo concertinas and English concertinas. This is the third leg of the triangle, the Duet concertina.

 

We've also heard how much more difficult the English is to play than the Anglo. I'm here to tell you that the Duet is so EASY, I'm ashamed to tell you about it. It really just plays itself. You may notice me pushing a button here or there from time to time, but it's just me making suggestions.

 

It's called a "Duet," by the way, because this end plays like an Anglo and this end plays like an English.