What's The Difference From Wicki And Hayden Layout?

[Richard Morse]

I only ever considered the W/H, the C-System (easier than Bayan) and Janko to replace the

awkward zebra piano layout. Thanks to m3838 for drawing attention to the difficulty

of playing four note chords. Even when my keyboard is going to have 20 mm in diameter

buttons, it will be pretty hard learn the fingering patterns of 4 note chords.

Yikes! There are more efficient fingering choices than the ones you've shown. Also I find that I often use a different inversion to make fingering easier. Also - I find it rare that 4-note chords are played... they are usually so thick and heavy sounding. The nice thing about W/H is that you can open up 4-note cords into several octaves which makes them clearer - something one usually doesn't do or think about because of an instrument's limitations.

 

For instance, I really like the French-Canadian backup style which uses left bass hand octaves with the right hand adding the thumb coming down on the 10th with the bass, and then the RH fingers doing the chord. With W/H you could easily all the bass stuff with one hand... with a slight more effort you can do the bass and chording with your left hand.

 

There's also a lot of 20's popular dance tunes (mostly animal dances) I play which tend to have higher inner-voice chords which are usually fingered with the right hand while the right hand plays the melody. I find this very difficult on the piano. On Hayden I can play such stretches on the bass side entirely leaving my right hand for the melody alone.

 

-- Rich --

[m3838]

There's also a lot of 20's popular dance tunes (mostly animal dances) I play which tend to have higher inner-voice chords which are usually fingered with the right hand while the right hand plays the melody. I find this very difficult on the piano. On Hayden I can play such stretches on the bass side entirely leaving my right hand for the melody alone.

 

That'd be awesome to hear somehow.

[jjj]

There are more efficient fingering choices than the ones you've shown.

I wished there would exist a chord fingering chart. Then I could settle for more ergonomic finger comfort.

Also - I find it rare that 4-note chords are played... they are usually so thick and heavy sounding.

On the accordion and organ I love to use the G7 chord in almost every melody and it sounds great and fitting.

The nice thing about W/H is that you can open up 4-note cords into several octaves which makes them clearer

Interesting!

For instance, I really like the French-Canadian backup style which uses left bass hand octaves with the right hand adding the thumb coming down on the 10th with the bass, and then the RH fingers doing the chord.

Having 20mm in diameter buttons make it even easier for the thumb, too.

There's also a lot of 20's popular dance tunes (mostly animal dances) I play which tend to have higher inner-voice chords which are usually fingered with the right hand while the right hand plays the melody. I find this very difficult on the piano. On Hayden I can play such stretches on the bass side entirely leaving my right hand for the melody alone.

It sound like the W/H is better for some melodies and less suitable for others, but I like to replace the zebra piano layout with it...

After following my mission... of finding that easiest to learn & play keyboard layout, I'm still pretty much bewildered. Considering the various advantages and disadvantages, I come to realize that the Janko seems to be not such bad deal after all.

As mentioned, it offers me many features other layouts simply lack, such as

1) Key fingering ergonomically ideal

2) Faster to learn, for I already play the piano accordion

3) Ideal to implement Klavarskribo type notation

4) Easy to adapt to any Synth (no electronics involved)

5) Last, not least... my Synth Kbd. is already converted to Janko!

 

Maybe I should stop searching for those illusive greener pastures...?

I think my raving journey started from the day I discovered that other layouts offer easy scale transfer.

That gave me new hope that I'm going to make it this time.

Edited April 26, 2008 by jjj

[ragtimer]

Also I find that I often use a different inversion to make fingering easier.

RIght. Early on, I practiced the two inversions of major and minor chords. I still need to practice them

but it's nice having them ready for instant use.

Also - I find it rare that 4-note chords are played... they are usually so thick and heavy sounding.

Right again. Like David Barnert, I find myself limiting chords more and more to just two notes. Extra notes are needed only to delineate a "special" chord, like minor 7th or minor+6.

The nice thing about W/H is that you can open up 4-note cords into several octaves which makes them clearer - something one usually doesn't do or think about because of an instrument's limitations.

This is something I would expect every Hayden, or even other DUet, player would do. On my Hayden, I regularly play a C chord with the E two rows up, and 7th chords with the 3rd and 7th notes two rows up. Much clearer and more powerful. I play them the "usual" way (all in two adjacent rows) only when I want a softer, muddier sound. These "open structure" chords are a fine feature of the Duet.

There's also a lot of 20's popular dance tunes (mostly animal dances) I play which tend to have higher inner-voice chords which are usually fingered with the right hand while the right hand plays the melody. I find this very difficult on the piano. On Hayden I can play such stretches on the bass side entirely leaving my right hand for the melody alone.

-- Rich --

Help me out here, Rich -- what are "animal dances"? --Mike K.

[m3838]

The nice thing about W/H is that you can open up 4-note cords into several octaves which makes them clearer - something one usually doesn't do or think about because of an instrument's limitations

On my Hayden, I regularly play a C chord with the E two rows up, and 7th chords with the 3rd and 7th notes two rows up. Much clearer and more powerful. I play them the "usual" way (all in two adjacent rows) only when I want a softer, muddier sound. These "open structure" chords are a fine feature of the Duet.

 

Would be nice to hear it too.

 

Help me out here, Rich -- what are "animal dances"? --Mike K.

 

Let me jump to guess, out of curiousity:

Rabbit Hop, Grizzly Bear, Fox Trot?

[jjj]

-- what are "animal dances"?

 

http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1034354

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Brge8FXg_8I

 

Just add your concertina sound to it and you're done!

Edited April 24, 2008 by jjj

[Richard Morse]

Help me out here, Rich -- what are "animal dances"?

And I thought you were into ragtime! m3838 is right on and jjj has found a really nice link about them. Basically these animal dances were invented to loosen up people from the stiff/stiffled/formal Victorian era where everone was so trussed up and one hardly touch one's partner - and then only with gloves on! With ragtime things really loosened up - animal dances were designed to have/make/allow people touch each other by way of silly movements. Not serious dances enabled the touching to be "okay".

 

Nowadays we don't think anything of full-body contact dance. Ragtime animal dances may seem pretty tame now, but they're still fun (okay - and often stupid silly).

 

-- Rich --

[tony]

And I, for one, find English-made concertinas -- and especially English-system concertinas -- to be examples of excellent ergonomic design.

 

Me too.

[ragtimer]

Help me out here, Rich -- what are "animal dances"?

And I thought you were into ragtime! m3838 is right on and jjj has found a really nice link about them.

OK RIch, thanks. Actually, as I lay in bed last nite it occurred to me -- "Fox Trot", "Turkey Trot", and a few others I know of, not from ragtime, but from old Edison DIamond Disk records from the Roaring 20s.

Also various "Hops", no doubt begun as "bunny" imitations.

Basically these animal dances were invented to loosen up people from the stiff/stifled/formal Victorian era where everyone was so trussed up and one hardly touch one's partner - and then only with gloves on! With ragtime things really loosened up - animal dances were designed to have/make/allow people touch each other by way of silly movements. Now serious dances enabled the touching to be "okay".

The waltz was a real scandal in its day -- couples embracing as they whirled about. Must have really loosened up the stuffy society of Vienna. Today we have the Lambada!

Nowadays we don't think anything of full-body contact dance. Ragtime animal dances may seem pretty tame now, but they're still fun (okay - and often stupid silly).

-- Rich --

You want to try teaching one at the next NESI contra dance? --Mike K.

[m3838]

You want to try teaching one at the next NESI contra dance? --Mike K.

 

I remember a VHS "History of Dance", where they breefly went past some 400 years of europena dance and meticulously reviewed american dances of 20th century. The Grizzly Bear was real something!

[jjj]

Richard Morse wrote:

Yikes! There are more efficient fingering choices than the ones you've shown. Also I find that I often use a different inversion to make fingering easier. Also - I find it rare that 4-note chords are played... they are usually so thick and heavy sounding. The nice thing about W/H is that you can open up 4-note cords into several octaves which makes them clearer - something one usually doesn't do or think about because of an instrument's limitations.

Maybe I threw in the towel too early... just, because of these difficult 4 note chord fingerings, which I might have badly evaluated?

I have one more hope left: Do you have any W/H chord fingering charts of the most common chords and its inversions? Or where can I find them? Please remember I don't read traditional notation.

It would be helpful if you could add the tricks how to simplify the fingerings of 4-note chords. Thanks to the W/H, it won't be too many, because I only need one in major, minor, 7th, Dim, Aug, and ?? in order to apply them to all other major and minor scales. Thx for the help.

[jjj]

Richard Morse wrote:

Yikes! There are more efficient fingering choices than the ones you've shown. Also I find that I often use a different inversion to make fingering easier. Also - I find it rare that 4-note chords are played... they are usually so thick and heavy sounding. The nice thing about W/H is that you can open up 4-note cords into several octaves which makes them clearer - something one usually doesn't do or think about because of an instrument's limitations.

Maybe I threw in the towel too early... just, because of these difficult 4 note chord fingerings, which I might have badly evaluated?

I have one more hope left: Do you have any W/H chord fingering charts of the most common chords and its inversions? Or where can I find them? Please remember I don't read traditional notation.

It would be helpful if you could add the tricks how to simplify the fingerings of 4-note chords. Thanks to the W/H, it won't be too many, because I only need one in major, minor, 7th, Dim, Aug, and ?? in order to apply them to all other major and minor scales. Thx for the help.

[m3838]

I really think you need to spend a week and learn to read notation.

Then you'll be very able to find some simple music, make a chart on the paper, and "practice" W/H till your socks fall off. And you'll find the charts by yourself.

It'll be faster and easier, then looking for some tablature, that others will make for you.

[Richard Morse]

I have one more hope left: Do you have any W/H chord fingering charts of the most common chords and its inversions?

I am planning on making some chord charts some day for our website (but it's a backburner project).... Meanwhile you might find this handout I made for W/H classes useful (basically a hodge-podge of contents and pics from a W/H tutor I'm authoring... at a snail's pace - a very backburner project).

 

-- Rich --

[jjj]

m3838 wrote:

I really think you need to spend a week and learn to read notation.

I already have... Klavarskribo, because that one I studied in three satisfactorily perform on the zebra keyboard. The one you suggest would take me at least 3 month to understand and at least 10 years of 8 hrs. daily practice to satisfactorily perform on the zebra piano. Just right for career musicians... yet totally unfit for hobby musicians, like me.

Then you'll be very able to find some simple music, make a chart on the paper, and "practice" W/H till your socks fall off. And you'll find the charts by yourself.

That I already solve in the meantime by increasing the Wicki pattern on my PC screen (see below).

It'll be faster and easier, then looking for some tablature, that others will make for you.

This problem I solved already by d/l it from: http://www.box.net/public/g6v2ubkvp3

I suppose I'm going to go for and practice both, the Janko and Wicki. As mentioned, all my electronic stuff is packed up and so, the only thing I can do this time (until I sell house, move and fit my workshop) is to unpack the Synth with the Janko keyboard on it and practice this one and as soon I'm able to get to my electronic stuff, I'll build this Wicki button keyboard. At least I have got the necessary passion and time for it.

 

A good idea would be to create a flashcard chord learning program, which ask you to enter one of the three inversion of of a number of vital chord pattern. The great thing is, the Wicki, the CBA/BBA and Janko ask require learning only

one

pattern of each chord and it's inversions in a major and minor scale, whereas the zebra asks for absurd 24 times more of the same! As mentioned, that suits music teachers... thank you, fine!

[m3838]

I already have... Klavarskribo

 

It's not a notation, it's very clever tablature. Makes sense, but doesn't help if you want to adapt a piece of music or practice Hayden on paper.

 

. The one you suggest would take me at least 3 month to understand and at least 10 years

 

I don't even understand what you are talking about.

I'm talking about been able to read the notes on the stave.

This way you can draw W/H layout on the piece of paper in front of you, open some simple tune book, and practice on paper to decide whether you like the layout or not.

Klavarscribo will not help you here.

And where did you take the numbers of years from?

 

A

good idea would be to create a flashcard chord learning program, which ask you to enter one of the three inversion of of a number of vital chord pattern.

 

I'm not a theorist, but having learned English in two months, can say that "scientific" approaches don't usually work.

The charts and tests will not help you to learn to "apply" the chord knowlegde.

You need practical course, hands on type of thing.

There are a few tutors around, but they all base on the reading notation, because they are not instrument centered.

I personally owe much of what I can use to Gary Dahl's book.

Just like I owe my English to "American Streamline" from Oxford University press. And bits and pieces of my German to my super teacher in High school. He gave me the idea of not bothering with theories, but develop a feel, when a word or a phraze just doesn't sound right. Without knowing why, you'll choose the best expression or passage of notes. Like children are learning.

[jjj]

Reply to m3838 today's posting:

Klavarscribo is a serious music notation; taught at the conservatory in Holland. I read it somewhere in Klavarskribo's pages; so, please don't insist in that I find in which pages! Klavarkribo has got everything traditional notation has; only better!

 

The link http://www.box.net/public/g6v2ubkvp3 shows the chord patterns as I longed to see them. Only the fingering I need to work out and for that I don't need to waste time studying that awkward traditional notation.

 

And where did you take the numbers of years from?

Evan Lenz, MusicScienceGuy, my pianist sister and her husband, concert pianist Prof. Gerhard Erber', explain it all.

Actually, I plan to make up a W/H button chart and a chord chart on a cardboard, showing vital chord patterns so, that I can look at it during play.

Also, I'm going to create a few simple melodies on my innovative Wicki notation. That will help me to get over the initial theoretical and practical hurdles. Self is the man!

having learned English in two months...

Where you take the number of months from? Which is your mother tongue? Your claim makes me a "slow learner", for my Ger, Fre, Span and English is still far from good, after years of practice; whereas you made it in 2 months. That means you can learn 6 languages every year! Incredible stuff. Congrats!

Now I also understand what you mean by "learning traditional notation in one month..." --> "Around the World in 80 Days" is another one!

Edited April 28, 2008 by jjj

[m3838]

"American Streamline" in three books with cassettes: Departure, Connection and Destination made it possible for me to learn practical language skills in 2 months, working several hours a day, each day, with excercises and drills.

Based on memorisation of dialogs, monologs, pieces of text. Memorisation been a tool, not ideology. Teaches to memorise blocks of phrazes, that can be put together, like Lego Blocks, without thinking, purely on memory, drilled by excercises. The speach becomes fluent, but not perfect.

In two months I went from '0' English to been employed in my field. My Englsh is not perfect by any means, but at the level, where I understand subtleties and started hearing my own accent. I'm originally from Minsk, Belarus.

I apply this method to anything I do, it works the best for me.

Learn to walk first, study anatomy later.

Klavarscribo is not a music notation, no matter how much it is praised as such by an institution, that practices it. It is a serious tablature, keyboard based and centered.

You can't read Klavarscribo on the flute or violin, CBA or guitar.

Traditional notation you can. So at least this is an advantage.

I don't belive you are so...mm... un-bright, that you can't grasp traditional placement of the notes on the stave, there are only 7 notes to remember, and 2 octaves that are different. Sharp and flat is not a mind boggler either, except for few places with double sharps/flats, but that is to be aware of and not to be afraid of.

I don't see how you can make a paper chart without reading the stave.

You've been writing about difficulty of reading for so long, it would have taken you to learn it three times. So I guess it's an ideology issue.

As for "zebra" keyboard, it's there for a reason. It's not a Midi device, it's mechanically connected to the hammer mechanism, striking the strings. A Piano is a mechanical harp.

Would you refer to harp as "zebra" keyboard?

Your MIDI toys are just toys, clever as they might be. But you seem to be totally engrossed in these - good for you. I could never understand how anybody could be attracted to electronic keyboard, with chords sticking out of it, like life support lines.

But to each it's own.