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Chords On A Hayden Duet


meltzer
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OK, was looking at this fingering chart on another thread, and just had some questions about how you Hayden players play chords: -

 

Wakker46.gif

 

 

As an Anglo player, this layout makes some kind of sense to me -- I can see fairly easily where the intervals are, and how the same "shapes" move up and down the keys. But.... I was just wondering what fingers you would tend to use for what keys. For instance -- if you wanted to play a simple triad (not that you ever would, you musical sophisticates, you. But for the sake of argument. ;) ). I notice that the "fifth" is quite close to the root (c & g, for instance). I must admit that looks a bit awkward to me, but no doubt you lot are used to it.

Edited by meltzer
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I was just wondering what fingers you would tend to use for what keys. For instance -- if you wanted to play a simple triad. I notice that the "fifth" is quite close to the root (c & g, for instance). I must admit that looks a bit awkward to me, but no doubt you lot are used to it.
For a simple major triad chord (on the left side of the instrument) I would play Root/5th/3rd with my M,R,I fingers. On the chart there, for a C major chord that would be all light (or all dark) green C,G,E keys.

 

I don't find that awkward at all and certainly no closer fingering than a typical chord would be on an anglo.

 

-- Rich --

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Thanks for that, Richard. Of course a fingering chart is no substitute for having the instrument in your hands, so I'm just trying to work out how it would feel to do that. This said, I'm sure I get my fingers into some fairly bizarre positions on the Anglo, I just try not to look. ;)

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I was just wondering what fingers you would tend to use for what keys. For instance -- if you wanted to play a simple triad. I notice that the "fifth" is quite close to the root (c & g, for instance). I must admit that looks a bit awkward to me, but no doubt you lot are used to it.
For a simple major triad chord (on the left side of the instrument) I would play Root/5th/3rd with my M,R,I fingers. On the chart there, for a C major chord that would be all light (or all dark) green C,G,E keys.

 

I don't find that awkward at all and certainly no closer fingering than a typical chord would be on an anglo.

 

-- Rich --

 

On the left hand, for a major chord, the root note and its third are on the same row. I would use the ring finger for the root and index finger for the third, with the middle finger covering the fifth on the next row,

eg

G

C E

 

For a minor chord such as E minor, the third and fifth are on the same row while the root is in the row below. For this I would use ring and index finger for the third and fifth and middle finger covering the root

eg

G B

E

 

 

Edited to add - sorry I can't seem to get to spacing right to properly describe what I am saying

 

- John Wild

Edited by John Wild
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Comparing it to a Maccan, as I would, it struck me that all the octave notes are stacked up vertically. On the Maccan this happens in theory but in fact the pattern breaks sideways sometimes to fit in the odd sharp and some octaves are thus a row to one side too. This confused me at first but now I would choose to play tunes in the register where this happens; stuff seems to flow better.

 

So. Would the Hayden keyboard be better if the successive rows moved a one space sideways in regular fashion, or is that starting to chisel at the simplicity of the thing?

 

Oh no! I've invented another duet system!

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Comparing it to a Maccan, as I would, it struck me that all the octave notes are stacked up vertically. On the Maccan this happens in theory but in fact the pattern breaks sideways sometimes to fit in the odd sharp and some octaves are thus a row to one side too. This confused me at first but now I would choose to play tunes in the register where this happens; stuff seems to flow better.

 

So. Would the Hayden keyboard be better if the successive rows moved a one space sideways in regular fashion, or is that starting to chisel at the simplicity of the thing?

A good point, but in reality the columns of octave buttons on a real Hayden actually lean a bit to the left or the right. See my new thread under "General Discussion", topic is "Octave Leap on Hayden Duet."

 

FWIW, I believe the Hayden is the only common concertina system in which octave rows repeat exactly the same. Makes it easy to shove a melodic phrase up or down an octave.

Oh no! I've invented another duet system!

Please don't! :o

--Mike K.

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FWIW, I believe the Hayden is the only common concertina system in which octave rows repeat exactly the same.

The only "common" one, maybe, though there are other, less common ones:

  • Chidley - variant of the Maccann (I wonder how many of these were made, vs. how many Haydens, so far)
  • Linton - not really a duet (one keyboard split between hands, like an English)
  • Wheatstone "double" - a 4-wide array, corresponding to CBA's 3-wide
  • other one-of-a-kind duets: e.g., my own Pitt-Taylor, and aeolina's duet, discussed (with others) in this thread

Makes it easy to shove a melodic phrase up or down an octave.

True, though I don't think that's particularly difficult with the other systems, once you become familiar with them. And it's hardly the only kind of "shift" that one might want to do. What about transposition to other keys? Or modulating between major and minor? (I've sometimes wondered why some tunes/songs which seem to be laments -- e.g., "My Bonnie Lies Over the Ocean" -- are in major keys, not minor :unsure:, so sometimes I change them. ;))

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FWIW, I believe the Hayden is the only common concertina system in which octave rows repeat exactly the same.

The only "common" one, maybe, though there are other, less common ones:

  • Chidley - variant of the Maccann (I wonder how many of these were made, vs. how many Haydens, so far)
Good question. Actually, ISTR seeing it claimed that around 600 Haydens had been made. Or maybe it was 60. Or maybe it was at least 75 of the Stagi entry-level models. Anyway, I was surprised that there were that many Haydens in the world. Still waiting for a vintage WIcki bando to turn up in some Alpine attic.

Linton - not really a duet (one keyboard split between hands, like an English)
Wheatstone "double" - a 4-wide array, corresponding to CBA's 3-wide
OK, the CBA does qualify as repeating octaves, tho the button field is rotated 90 degrees from the way duet tinas are laid out. I wonder how that Wheatstone Double compared in playability to the CBA -- well, maybe history has spoken the answer.

other one-of-a-kind duets: e.g., my own Pitt-Taylor, and aeolina's duet, discussed (with others) in this thread
Yes, I remembered your Pitt-Taylor, but went senior on its name so I didn't mention it.

Makes it easy to shove a melodic phrase up or down an octave.

True, though I don't think that's particularly difficult with the other systems, once you become familiar with them. And it's hardly the only kind of "shift" that one might want to do. What about transposition to other keys? Or modulating between major and minor? (I've sometimes wondered why some tunes/songs which seem to be laments -- e.g., "My Bonnie Lies Over the Ocean" -- are in major keys, not minor :unsure:, so sometimes I change them. ;))

Well, moving the tune up or down a 2nd, 4th, or 5th is trivial on a Hayden, within limits. In fact, sometimes I start a tune like that without even trying :o

 

Shifting a tune between its parallel (not relative) minor is a favorite trick of 19th century Italian tunes. It's also something I used to do on the piano a lot as a kid -- and it turns out, some tunes and their harmonies just don't work in the "other" mode. However, my arrangemenet of "City of Ships", played at the 2004 NESI, did take the melody into minor mode, down in the deep bass, for one variation.

 

Once you know your Hayden keyboard, tossing in three extra flats just requires some hand stretches, but is not mentally difficult.

--Mike K.

Edited by ragtimer
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Here is a link to a chart of all the main chords and how they are built on a Wicki / Hayden layout.

concertina/jammer-chords

I'm learning / inventing how to play a jammer, which is essentially a Hayden-layout concertina writ large and flat.

 

I'm finding it's fun. My hat off to Brian for inventing & publicizing it. :) This fingering works well. I hope this helps.

 

Ken.

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I know a little bit about music theory, but, as an Anglo player, I try to keep it separate from my playing. ;)

On a Hayden Concertina, music theory and playing are one. B)

 

I expected, based on my readings, that the combination would provide a powerful synergy (it's like being in a city with straight streets, arrayed on a regular basis - it's simple to get somewhere, give you time to enjoy the view), but it's still gratifying to have it actually so work. :D

 

The fingering is working out well too.

 

Ken.

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(it's like being in a city with straight streets, arrayed on a regular basis - it's simple to get somewhere, give you time to enjoy the view)

 

What view?

The people, the shops, the architecture, the street signs, the sidewalk plantings, the seething rabble of World Economic Forum protesters, the oncoming out-of-control natural gas delivery truck---that view, m.
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(it's like being in a city with straight streets, arrayed on a regular basis - it's simple to get somewhere, give you time to enjoy the view)

 

What view?

The people, the shops, the architecture, the street signs, the sidewalk plantings, the seething rabble of World Economic Forum protesters, the oncoming out-of-control natural gas delivery truck---that view, m.

 

My reply contained the Ultimate Truth, opened only to the members of the Family.

Revealing the Truth to strangers results in sudden violent Death, but I'll do that anyways.

The straight forward linear structure doesn't contain a view. It opens the perspective to see the view that is outside of the Structure, like in San Francisco, where basically everywhere you see the countryside.The City itself is belittled by it's clear swishes of linear streets. The best views in the City is where the perspective is closed - the turns, the angles.

Simple and easy keyboard may be unuseable at higher levels of proficiency. Not very easy to feel Chromatic Button layout offers lightning speed and chordal fluency, Crazy push-pull diatonic offers easy by-ear playing, Schetzophrenic left-right fingering of English system offers ease to read, lighting fast melody playing, "Where do I put my fingers" fretless fingerboard offers unparallel intonation - but not at once. One has to get to grips with it.

I'm just arguing the premise that simple straight forward keyboard is inherently better musically.

The whole discussion, when taken out of context of application, is lacking a content.

Example:

Balalaika is very limited instrument with three strings tuned EEA. Ridiculous! But offers excellent system for fast chordal changes - you can easily make your own chords and play melody with them.

Ukulele has high string in place of low - limiting the range like crazy, throwing off the logic of descending scale, but - offers uplifting feel on down- and up-strokes.

I thought a B system is way better than Piano - Wrong!

I also thought Hayden is way better then all other systems - Wrong!

I'm too talky, it's because I tried to record my take on the two Minuets from Bach's Cello Suites and failed.

That's how "easy" EC is. You're welcome to follow the, mm, suite(?) and offer reasonable rendition of some good piece of music - then we'll talk about systems.

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Revealing the Truth to strangers results in sudden violent Death, but I'll do that anyways.
I'd guess it's fair to say you'll live to post again, m. :lol:

 

Schetzophrenic left-right fingering of English system offers ease to read, lighting fast melody playing,
Scherzophrenic, maybe. :lol:
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Revealing the Truth to strangers results in sudden violent Death, but I'll do that anyways.
I'd guess it's fair to say you'll live to post again, m.

I'm disapointed and reliefed simultaneously.

My ancient beliefs are shuttered, but I'm posting.

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