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Diy Janko Bandoneon


jjj
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Yes... that's true. It shouldn't be all that difficult to find the left hand chords, since the W/H offers even a circle of 5th. It's that new to me that I didn't see the forest, because of too many trees! Now I finally get it.

So, it shouldn't be all that difficult to learn the chord patterns. For instance, In C-major one usually goes from C-chord to G- 7th, F-chord etc. So, once I know the chord pattern and position of the C scale I can easily repeat the same pattern in different locations (all scales). Although, the three inversion of each chord allow for more choices than Stradella, it adds complexity. The advantage is that all pattern are only ones to learn and than transposable to all scales.

Strange that the same isn't quite that easy on a piano keyboard... there it gets really confusing. No wonder I thought of it as something requiring

extraordinary dexterity. With W/H all the fluff & puff just doesn't exist! That's what every hobby musician should know; leaving the awkward, traditional piano layout to those aiming to distance themselves from hobby musicians. I don't envy them... :lol:

Edited by jjj
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Stradella bass & chords are indeed restrictive. Also it gives me lots more work to connect the 120 switches to the Synth.

So, the only things opposing it is the fact that I had considerable practice in playing it and worrying that it might take years to gain the same dexterity on W/H?

With Stradella I instinctively felt where the chords are. That's why I had not to bother about scales. Albeit this involved huge jumps and a few single bass note patterns, I managed.

 

With most melodies I'll use Live-Styler (YamahaStyle) accompaniment. This software also has got a mapper for PC keyboard melody play.

No problem then to set it up and try it out. Hurray!

 

I gratefully take your good advice, Rich, for you know/ tried all button layouts. This experience I lack and that's why I'm on shaky grounds. Not sure when my project will be ready, because we trying to sell our house, but in the meantime I'll try the PC-W/H and since my musical aspirations will always with me, I'll let you all know how things worked out after longer years... God willing (!)

In this case I better build a 61 note W/H layout and for the time being at least, forget about connecting the Stradella, until I get to know the W/H. This allows me to control Live-Styler with W/H buttons in the lowest octave.

Also, the W/H allows me to see its generously sized buttons, whereas I would have blindly played the Stradella horizontally, buttons vertically. So, things with W/H looking pretty promising... :)

 

Another great idea would be to build two W/H keyboards: one smaller one for left-hand bass & chords and the right one for melody only. I then could even place them ergonomically (in natural hand position somewhere between concertina and piano) and maybe even add a 12 pedals?

Edited by jjj
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Stradella bass & chords are indeed restrictive. Also it gives me lots more work to connect the 120 switches to the Synth.

So, the only things opposing it is the fact that I had considerable practice in playing it and worrying that it might take years to gain the same dexterity on W/H?

With Stradella I instinctively felt where the chords are. That's why I had not to bother about scales. Albeit this involved huge jumps and a few single bass note patterns, I managed.

 

With most melodies I'll use Live-Styler (YamahaStyle) accompaniment. This software also has got a mapper for PC keyboard melody play.

No problem then to set it up and try it out. Hurray!

 

I gratefully take your good advice, Rich, for you know/ tried all button layouts. This experience I lack and that's why I'm on shaky grounds. Not sure when my project will be ready, because we trying to sell our house, but in the meantime I'll try the PC-W/H and since my musical aspirations will always with me, I'll let you all know how things worked out after longer years... God willing (!)

In this case I better build a 61 note W/H layout and for the time being at least, forget about connecting the Stradella, until I get to know the W/H. This allows me to control Live-Styler with W/H buttons in the lowest octave.

Also, the W/H allows me to see its generously sized buttons, whereas I would have blindly played the Stradella horizontally, buttons vertically. So, things with W/H looking pretty promising... :)

 

Another great idea would be to build two W/H keyboards: one smaller one for left-hand bass & chords and the right one for melody only. I then could even place them ergonomically (in natural hand position somewhere between concertina and piano) and maybe even add a 12 pedals?

 

 

 

Now you have decided what to do here is a link, http://musicscienceguy.vox.com/ to someone who has done a similar thing.

 

Graham

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Now you have decided what to do here is a link, http://musicscienceguy.vox.com/ to someone who has done a similar thing. Graham

We made friends long time, ago. His project is quite different from mine. I don't want to physically change my Synth, in case I want to sell it later.

============

I just tried to finger a few bass & chords patterns on the W/H and do realize that I'll in for lots of relearning. For my needs the simple Stradella might be the simpler solution. In case I need some "unrestricted chords" I can 'steal' them from the melody side.

Edited by jjj
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Another great idea would be to build two W/H keyboards: one smaller one for left-hand bass & chords and the right one for melody only.
The 61-key layout I posted IS a double keyed layout. You play it with both hands. Treble and bass.

 

-- Rich --

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Another great idea would be to build two W/H keyboards: one smaller one for left-hand bass & chords and the right one for melody only.
The 61-key layout I posted IS a double keyed layout. You play it with both hands. Treble and bass. -- Rich --

 

Yea I know, no problem with that. As mentioned, I just tried to find the fingering for various left hand bass & chords and I must tell you that it will take me years to acquire the same left-hand dexterity on the W/H the way I can play it with a Stradella already now. Otherwise my melody playing will be hampered by complex chord rhythm fingering. Of course W/H offers me more freedom of choice, but I can even make the diminished buttons switch to another often needed chord.

Most of the time I'll be playing that Live-Styler (Yamaha Styles) accompaniment and there I can enrich the melody with additional left hand chords. Thus, for my purpose I think I should stick to 4 four octave of W/H for melody and the Stradella. Then I have only to train my right hand for melody play with W/H. Anyway, I won't play much classical melodies with it.

For serious classical music I still got my personal "twitter' instrument, which the best layout cannot match.

But it was good to check out all options and then pick the choice which suits me best. I'm glad I went thus far. Not long ago, I wasn't even sure which layout I should choose. With your help I was able to overcome this dilemma. Thx, Rich I feel richer now! :)

 

Beside, I also found: http://www.korbo.com/piedcrow/diagrams/haydn001.GIF mentioned on this site: http://www.korbo.com/piedcrow/DiagramIndex.htm

Edited by jjj
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You know what is the funny aspect of training your right hand on W/H?

That your left hand will get trained too. All by itself.

So your Stradella will be obsolete, don't hand onto it too much.

Thx for that bit of good advice. In that case I better build the 118 button/ 61 note W/H layout (instead the 49 note one) and the Stradella !

I then can learn faster the right hand playing and when I feel like practicing the left hand I have got all the buttons for it, too. In case I really gain dexterity on W/H faster than anticipated, I just unplug the Stradella. With that setup all eventualities are covered.. How about that?

 

Actually, I would prefer left hand bass & chord playing on the W/H, but it seems too hard to press the bass and then jump onto three or four button and that in various rhythms; no problem with Stradella. Let's hope its that spontaneous as you say. I'm sure I'll be pretty good with the right hand, but thus far my left hand was only good on Stradella.

It must be wonderful to play this layout with, say a very realistic Steinway piano soundfont and good speaker system. I would feel like a cheat, because it would only cost me about 5% on efforts compared to what pianists on the traditional keyboard have to butter with decades of scales practice and training...

Now I only hope there's no better keyboard layout, which I didn't yet discover. By mistake I already thought Janko was the best one... Please let me know in case there's one around I didn't think of. Thx

 

Today I emailed http://www.alltronics.com/cgi-bin/item/96B...yboard%2DSwitch ...for 150 of their cheap PC keyboard switches. They will be just right to glue my buttons, sliced from a broomstick handle, onto it. At first I thought of making the switches myself, using plastic tubing as shaft (sliding though a half inch plywood board), PC keyboard membranes as "springs" and contact wire. For smooth functionality the shafts must be at least 10mm in diameter if the buttons are 22mm in diameter or else the buttons might stick or hang.

Edited by jjj
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If you are familiar with the Stradella Bass you will have no difficulty transfering to a Hayden Bass system.

I tryed to improve the Bisonic (melodeon) treble system many years ago destroying no less than 5 instruments in the process. All except the first had Stradella basses which at the time (I was playing English, Irish, Scottish, and American trad dance tunes) I found to be sufficient. The last evolution of the last button accordion was to a part Hayden Treble (with stradella bass), at a time whilst I was waiting (nearly 7 years) for Crabbs to make me a Hayden system concertina. When I finally got the Crabb, it took me only 2 or 3 weeks to play the equivalent accompaniments to those of the Stradella, on the left hand side.

It has taken a half a lifetime of the utmost pleasure to explore the many other possibilities of the Hayden Bass; and having found something new in one key it is immediately available in 7 other keys (and to a certain extent in a further 2) on the instrument that I now play. If you make an electronic Keyboard you will naturally be able to up this to all 12 Keys!

Inventor.

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Additions to the above.

You mention pedals in connection with the electronic keyboard; here is a thought:- as you don't need to use the thumbs to play either treble or bass, you could add a small keyboard for the 2 thumbs in the middle below the other keys, to play the equivalent of a pedal-board. I am sure that this would be much easier to play than a pedal-board; and leave the feet to control volume and other things.

Years ago I drew all this out but didn't have the knowledge or finances to make it.

This together with the ease of transfer from Stradella to Hayden bass, and the different uses for the little fingers, is the reason why I always strongly reccomend against making the Bass of a Hayden the mirror image of the treble, which is continually suggested by people who have never played a standard Hayden system.

I am not able to put these drawings directly onto my internet access but will send these diagrams by snail mail to one of the contributors to this web site to show you what I mean.

I did eventually discover the best way to arrange the pairs of notes on buttons for a bisonic Accordion, Bandoneon or concertina, but that was long after I was well into unisonics. I have never published this in the hope that someone more interested in bisonics would discover it and produce it as their own invention. I know how devestated I was when someone pointed out that Wiki had come to the same conclusion as myself a hundred years previously for the Bandoneon, but never seems to have championed the system, (there are no know Wiki instruments, just a proposal in an Alfred Arnold catalogue). He probably met with even more opposition from the Bandoneon establishments at the time, than I have from the english-concertina and Maccann camps of today.

 

Inventor.

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If you are familiar with the Stradella Bass you will have no difficulty transfering to a Hayden Bass system.

I tryed to improve the Bisonic (melodeon) treble system many years ago destroying no less than 5 instruments in the process. All except the first had Stradella basses which at the time (I was playing English, Irish, Scottish, and American trad dance tunes) I found to be sufficient. The last evolution of the last button accordion was to a part Hayden Treble (with stradella bass), at a time whilst I was waiting (nearly 7 years) for Crabbs to make me a Hayden system concertina. When I finally got the Crabb, it took me only 2 or 3 weeks to play the equivalent accompaniments to those of the Stradella, on the left hand side.

It has taken a half a lifetime of the utmost pleasure to explore the many other possibilities of the Hayden Bass; and having found something new in one key it is immediately available in 7 other keys (and to a certain extent in a further 2) on the instrument that I now play. If you make an electronic Keyboard you will naturally be able to up this to all 12 Keys!

Inventor.

The very thing I try to avoid is the destruction of my Synth. That's why the mounted Janko adapter on my Synth is reversible. I only built it, believing that Janko was the best layout ...until I struggled myself through to W/H. The Jammer folk did merely the same, but now to almost try to take credit for the invention of W/H. At least they try very hard not to mention Wick/Hayden and present themselves as the "clever Einstein scientists" (this sort of mentality drives me nuts!) They are not short of musical theory either, just to prove to themselves worthy of their business venture.

I think, I just build myself the 118 button /61 note W/H keyboard and then try to learn, first the right hand melody and then the left hand bass & chord accompaniment. See how I'll go. Last, not least, Thx for your good advice. :)

Edited by jjj
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Additions to the above. You mention pedals in connection with the electronic keyboard; here is a thought:- as you don't need to use the thumbs to play either treble or bass, you could add a small keyboard for the 2 thumbs in the middle below the other keys, to play the equivalent of a pedal-board. I am sure that this would be much easier to play than a pedal-board; and leave the feet to control volume and other things. Years ago I drew all this out but didn't have the knowledge or finances to make it. This together with the ease of transfer from Stradella to Hayden bass, and the different uses for the little fingers, is the reason why I always strongly reccomend against making the Bass of a Hayden the mirror image of the treble, which is continually suggested by people who have never played a standard Hayden system. I am not able to put these drawings directly onto my internet access but will send these diagrams by snail mail to one of the contributors to this web site to show you what I mean. I did eventually discover the best way to arrange the pairs of notes on buttons for a bisonic Accordion, Bandoneon or concertina, but that was long after I was well into unisonics. I have never published this in the hope that someone more interested in bisonics would discover it and produce it as their own invention. I know how devestated I was when someone pointed out that Wiki had come to the same conclusion as myself a hundred years previously for the Bandoneon, but never seems to have championed the system, (there are no know Wiki instruments, just a proposal in an Alfred Arnold catalogue). He probably met with even more opposition from the Bandoneon establishments at the time, than I have from the english-concertina and Maccann camps of today. Inventor.
...as you don't need to use the thumbs

Rich suggested to make th buttons the size of piano keys (2.3mm in diameter) and since the keyboard will be flat on top the table, I suppose I'll use my thumbs for melody play as well.

Your idea of arranging 12 bass buttons in front on the keyboard isn't a bad idea and much better than using foot pedals.

I'll try to get used to play the bass & chords with the left hand, since their patterns are transposable. I'm not sure how difficult this will be to learn, because it involves quite a bit of practice to jumps from bass and counter bass to chords. In addition this has to be done rhythmically. Because with Stradella I have so much practice that it all happens automatically, allowing me to focus entirely on the melody.

...finances
I make it almost without finances, apart from the broom handle for the buttons, some spit & patience.
...Hayden the mirror image of the treble

The Jammer's left box has its W/H layout mirrored. I think it only adds to confusion. You know it, because you played it long enough to know it.

 

It took me quite some time too, to analyze the various button instruments, including B & C-system, Janko and concertinas. So, I'm glad to close my investigation knowing that W/H being the easies and fastest to learn and play keyboard layout of them all!

Today I had a bright idea of how to build the buttons and its switches: The button thickness will be about 7mm. Underneath in its center I'm going to drill a 5mm deep hole, a bit smaller in diameter than the wire pin I'm pushing into it. This pin then passes through a PC keyboard switch membrane (instead of a spring) and then through a 5mm thick plywood, where it pushes a contact. I make the contact accessible so, that I can check and adjust them any time later on.

swqu8.jpg

 

The other option would be to buy cheap surplus keyboard switches, like the ones I saw at Alltronic/CA http://www.alltronics.com/cgi-bin/item/96B...yboard%2DSwitch - but then again one doesn't know how long they will last?

Edited by jjj
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I'll try to get used to play the bass & chords with the left hand, since their patterns are transposable. I'm not sure how difficult this will be to learn, because it involves quite a bit of practice to jumps from bass and counter bass to chords.
I don't understand why you think this is such a "jump"? One's hand doesn't move much (if at all). A very full (and stradella-like) sound is made by using the P,R fingers to play the two octaves of bass notes, and then the R stays where it is and you add the M,I fingers for the chord notes (you can elect to pick up and put down the R or not). For the 5th counterbass you still use your P,R fingers (only one key away from where they were) for the bass notes and the chord notes are the same with the same fingers. For the 3rd counterbass you can use your T,I for the bass and the same R,M,I for the chord (you can elect to pick up and put down the I or not).
Hayden-stride.gif

There are many partial and inversion scenarios of course. Personally I prefer a cleaner/less dense sound as that way the accompaniment won't mud-out or down out the melody. That's easier to play too as the R,M,I fingers will always be resting on the chord keys (using a single note for basses and counterbasses. Runs too!).

 

-- Rich --

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I'll try to get used to play the bass & chords with the left hand, since their patterns are transposable. I'm not sure how difficult this will be to learn, because it involves quite a bit of practice to jumps from bass and counter bass to chords.
I don't understand why you think this is such a "jump"? One's hand doesn't move much (if at all). A very full (and stradella-like) sound is made by using the P,R fingers to play the two octaves of bass notes, and then the R stays where it is and you add the M,I fingers for the chord notes (you can elect to pick up and put down the R or not). For the 5th counterbass you still use your P,R fingers (only one key away from where they were) for the bass notes and the chord notes are the same with the same fingers. For the 3rd counterbass you can use your T,I for the bass and the same R,M,I for the chord (you can elect to pick up and put down the I or not).
Hayden-stride.gif

There are many partial and inversion scenarios of course. Personally I prefer a cleaner/less dense sound as that way the accompaniment won't mud-out or down out the melody. That's easier to play too as the R,M,I fingers will always be resting on the chord keys (using a single note for basses and counterbasses. Runs too!).

-- Rich --

Hi Rich,

 

Yes, I agree with you and welcome your encouragement, for you have been there... where I try to go. I just lack this sort of experience. Once I'll gain it, I'll be eagerly trumpeting / spread the good message to those in need.

The problem is that it's something very new to me. In fact Stradella also demands this kind of "jumps". So, it's merely a matter of getting used to new pattern play and since it's repetitive it shouldn't be that hard to learn as I make it out. So, that means I'll have to learn and get used to a handful of basic & exotic chords patterns and then they'll pop out as spontaneously as with the Stradella. In time to come I'll be able to transfer the same patterns into all scales. So, yes I think I gradually it now...

That must be the main reason why the traditional piano layout doesn't die out, for most players believe this to be "the only world-wide acknowledged and acceptable layout" and don't dare to take the challenge to explore the realm of alternatives. I cannot imagine a great pianist, such as Barenboim endorsing the W/H layout as superior to the traditional one, albeit it's evident (even to laymen, like me) that it is in fact superior! ;)

I have the feeling that most traditional piano layout players and notation readers got used to and enjoy that masochistic idea that, because it's so hard to master it adds to artistic achievements and helps discriminating themselves from (us) ordinary musicians. Decades ago, the same arrogance was displayed by clergymen and doctors, speaking Latin to intimidate us. I'm all against puff & fluff, that's why I'm keen to explore alternative in order to improve quality of life. Narrow-mindedness gets us stay put.

Edited by jjj
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The problem is that it's something very new to me. In fact Stradella also demands this kind of "jumps". So, it's merely a matter of getting used to new pattern play and since it's repetitive it shouldn't be that hard to learn as I make it out. So, that means I'll have to learn and get used to a handful of basic & exotic chords patterns and then they'll pop out as spontaneously as with the Stradella. In time to come I'll be able to transfer the same patterns into all scales. So, yes I think I gradually it now...

So far I haven't seen anyone mention this simple fact:

 

If you take the Stradella row of bass buttons and shift every other button up a row, you get the first two rows (and first octave) of the Wicki/Hayden layout!

 

So a W/H pair of rows is just a staggered Stradella row. That means you can move around the bass buttons in a somewhat more compact manner.

 

As for hitting the chords up abovve the bass rows, I agree with Rich that it's easy, it can be made to sound very much like an accordion LH (Stradella), but you have quite a variety of options in how you voice the chords, unlike an accordion.

That must be the main reason why the traditional piano layout doesn't die out, for most players believe this to be "the only world-wide acknowledged and acceptable layout" and don't dare to take the challenge to explore the realm of alternatives. I cannot imagine a great pianist, such as Barenboim endorsing the W/H layout as superior to the traditional one, albeit it's evident (even to laymen, like me) that it is in fact superior! ;)

I personally believe the Hayden layout is the best thing to happen to concertinas since the bellows. But I'm not so sure how well the W/H layout would transfer to a "prone" keyboard to be played with both hands. I think it's well worth trying out, and has in fact been done by one of those Web dealers (the "Jammer").

I have the feeling that most traditional piano layout players and notation readers got used to and enjoy that masochistic idea that, because it's so hard to master it adds to artistic achievements and helps discriminating themselves from (us) ordinary musicians.

I wouldn't go quite that far. I'd say the conventional piano/organ/PA keyboard remains "king" due to intertia, just like the QWERTY typewriter keyboard. It was proven years ago that the Dvorak keyboard is better for touch typing, but no business wanted to invest the time and trouble to retrain its secretaries.

 

BTW, I think we came to a consensus that the Janko keyboard is too long and shallow for practical use in a concertina, despite its good features as a prone keyboard.

--Mike K.

Edited by ragtimer
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Hi Good people,

 

While you are on the topic if W/H, I have posted a method for a new musician to mark up a musical score so that it can be read and played on a W/H unit and perhaps it can help on several other layouts.

http://musicscienceguy.vox.com/library/pos...er-playing.html

 

I'd like your feedback.

Ken.

 

PS. jjj, I hope you don't think I'm not crediting Hayden and Wicki for their idea on my blog/website. :unsure: I've added a mention on my main page.

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http://musicscienceguy.vox.com/library/pos...er-playing.html

 

 

Perhaps I'm stupid, but I didn't understand the idea.

What's wrong with just reading the score?

So on a W/H it doesn't matter where you are keywise.

So you have a key with 5 shaprs. Big deal!

So you move your hands where they belong and ignore those shaprs.

Where is winning by learning yet another tablature system?

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Hi Good people,

 

While you are on the topic if W/H, I have posted a method for a new musician to mark up a musical score so that it can be read and played on a W/H unit and perhaps it can help on several other layouts.

http://musicscienceguy.vox.com/library/pos...er-playing.html

I'd like your feedback. Ken.

Here are my latest ideas on that (modeled on the Klavarskribo concept):

whnotation111jl1.jpg

For easier orientation purpose the lines upper row notes are drawn bold.

PS. jjj, I hope you don't think I'm not crediting Hayden and Wicki for their idea on my blog/website. :unsure: I've added a mention on my main page.

Then I must have caught the wrong impression? I mean it would be hard or even stupid to disguise the fact that W/H originated it, although this fact is not be helpful in the Thummer's promotion, for most consumers select goods on "amazing criteria".

Edited by jjj
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