fidjit Posted January 30, 2008 Author Share Posted January 30, 2008 No, I'm sorry, I'm pretty sure that the charter is the thing; if you have the cathedral then you are a 'Cathedral City'; but it's just a name because you have the charter and a cathedral. The cathedral is incidental. Maybe the church gets pressure to 'promote' churches in new cities. (Urgh! 'new cities'. What a grim phrase) They didn't make Swindon a city recently because the inspectors said there wasn't the necessary civic pride. That was a surprise... And lay off Wells; charming place, Wells. There's only about 12,000 other people fighting you for elbow room. Wells does have one of the finer cathedrals, as well as a moated bishop's palace. And Wells has a Cathedral and is a Well(s) known City. The City of Wells! Can anyone tell me if it has one. A well I mean. Or perhaprs they are in the plural. Chas Week and a day to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivan Viehoff Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 No, I'm sorry, I'm pretty sure that the charter is the thing; if you have the cathedral then you are a 'Cathedral City'; but it's just a name because you have the charter and a cathedral. The cathedral is incidental. Maybe the church gets pressure to 'promote' churches in new cities. (Urgh! 'new cities'. What a grim phrase) They didn't make Swindon a city recently because the inspectors said there wasn't the necessary civic pride. That was a surprise... And lay off Wells; charming place, Wells. There's only about 12,000 other people fighting you for elbow room. Wells does have one of the finer cathedrals, as well as a moated bishop's palace. Now you are in NZ, what do you make of Auckland, Wellington, Christchurch, Nelson, Invercargill? Are they cities - how do you know - where do you draw the line? Madrid, León, Toledo, Badajoz, what about them, and how did you know? How would a Spaniard decide whether to call a place 'ciudad' (city) rather than 'pueblo' (town)? What would he make of Croydon - ciudad, pueblo, or población/barrio (suburb)? Having a piece of parchment you can hang on the wall is one way of defining a city. But there is another, more obvious, one and it is the one most of the people on the planet use. I've nothing against Wells, aside from a reluctance to call a small market town of 12,000 people a city, however ancient it's piece of parchment. Indeed its ancientness is all the more reason to ignore it, coming from a time when Leeds, Sheffield and Bristol would not have had one. Wells is indeed a charming small market town, and I go there often. In view of the splendid ecclesiastical infrastructure it contains, it was clearly rather more important 1100 years ago than it is today. As was Dorchester-on-Thames: its once powerful cathedral, which ruled an extensive diocese stretching from Winchester to Leicester, now sensibly downgraded to abbey, we can see the place for what it is, a small village most people have never heard of. Swindon, rather than Salisbury, has become the main economic centre of Wiltshire, and continues to grow. As the Swindon/Salisbury relation becomes more like Bristol/Wells, the piece of parchment will become unimportant. As for cultural sense of itself, I suggest reading Jasper Fforde's "The Eyre Affair" for an alternative, and very peculiar, view of Swindon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Timson Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 Swindon, rather than Salisbury, has become the main economic centre of Wiltshire, and continues to grow As someone who lives in Wiltshire, I am very glad to say that Swindon is a unitary authority and thus no longer part of Wiltshire. We are in the midst of a huge digression in a thread which is itself a huge digression. To step back one digression, may I respectfully suggest that as Wheatstone was born in 1829 then only facilities available to the London tube traveller in that year should be utilised in his memorial game. This would immediately rule out oysters, blackberries and satnavs and bring us back to an older, more considered and thoughtful style of play. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Madge Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 Wells does indeed have several wells, I seem to remember that there are three within the grounds of the cathedral. Not all cities have a cathedral (Swansea?, Preston?), but I can't think of a cathedral that has no city. Robin Madge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fidjit Posted January 30, 2008 Author Share Posted January 30, 2008 Swindon, rather than Salisbury, has become the main economic centre of Wiltshire, and continues to grow As someone who lives in Wiltshire, I am very glad to say that Swindon is a unitary authority and thus no longer part of Wiltshire. We are in the midst of a huge digression in a thread which is itself a huge digression. To step back one digression, may I respectfully suggest that as Wheatstone was born in 1829 then only facilities available to the London tube traveller in that year should be utilised in his memorial game. This would immediately rule out oysters, blackberries and satnavs and bring us back to an older, more considered and thoughtful style of play. Chris As for one that used to live in Swindon, Well Stratton St Margaret actually, but its been swallowed up now. As the canals were by the railways etc. etc. I went back there a couple of years ago to see if I could find the house I used to live in. Very difficult it was too. Very caotic place to drive around in. Glad I left. Pity as I would like to re visit the Folk Club there. They used to have two. I kissed Julie Felix in one of them. But I digress. Underground wasn'r running in 1829 Chris. First line was opened in. . . . .wait for it. Still a few days to go. However I get yur point. I like Farmers Markets too. Chas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidcorner Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 Not all cities have a cathedral (Swansea?, Preston?), but I can't think of a cathedral that has no city. How about Kirkwall, with the splendid St. Magnus Cathedral. Mind you, that was built while Orkney was still under Norse rule, so the city rule probably didn't apply then. Both Elgin and Brechin have cathedrals, although Elgin cathedral is now just a ruin (blame the Wolf of Badenoch) hence the names of their football teams: Elgin City Brechin City. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterT Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 Both Elgin and Brechin have cathedrals, although Elgin cathedral is now just a ruin (blame the Wolf of Badenoch) hence the names of their football teams:Elgin City Brechin City. So, Croydon is not a city, does not have a cathedral, but does have a Crystal Palace on its doorstep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fidjit Posted January 30, 2008 Author Share Posted January 30, 2008 Both Elgin and Brechin have cathedrals, although Elgin cathedral is now just a ruin (blame the Wolf of Badenoch) hence the names of their football teams:Elgin City Brechin City. So, Croydon is not a city, does not have a cathedral, but does have a Crystal Palace on its doorstep. PeterT Crystal Palace does not a cathedral make. Chas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterT Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 Both Elgin and Brechin have cathedrals, although Elgin cathedral is now just a ruin (blame the Wolf of Badenoch) hence the names of their football teams:Elgin City Brechin City. So, Croydon is not a city, does not have a cathedral, but does have a Crystal Palace on its doorstep. PeterT Crystal Palace does not a cathedral make. Chas Sorry, Chas, but I thought that the thread had moved onto football clubs. Mind you, the original Crystal Palace was as grand as (almost) any cathedral. As an aside, my father saw it burning, in 1936, from 30 miles away! Peter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirge Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 Well I was about to say that; Croydon doesn't have a Crystal Palace either; just the foundations for one... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Dunk Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 Tall ship sighted - sailing very close to the wind!! Pah! Balderdash and piffle. Has anyone considered the deep, dark, forgotten places? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hjcjones Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 Having a piece of parchment you can hang on the wall is one way of defining a city. But there is another, more obvious, one and it is the one most of the people on the planet use. But, as with so many things, most of the people on the planet are simply wrong And isn't there something odd in some one-horse town in the middle of nowhere describing itself as a "city"? In England, a city has a charter from the Crown. A Cathedral is the seat of a bishop, so the Church decides what is a cathedral. For obvious reasons, a cathedral would often be in a city, but the two things are entirely separate. Most importantly for the purposes of this thread, an underground railway is not a defining characteristic of a city Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivan Viehoff Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 A Cathedral is the seat of a bishop, so the Church decides what is a cathedral. For obvious reasons, a cathedral would often be in a city, but the two things are entirely separate. Most importantly for the purposes of this thread, an underground railway is not a defining characteristic of a city Well, actually Wells lost its bishop over 900 years ago, when the chap decided to decamp to Bath. The bishop's seat at Bath is, as at Westminster, called an Abbey. He calls himself the Bishop of Bath and Wells as throwback to his former seat. And actually Croydon has a bishop (probably a suffragan bishop, which is a second class bishop who doesn't get a seat in the House of Lords). Though Croydon lies in the diocese of Canterbury, as a detached island of that diocese. This is because Croydon was formerly the country residence of the Archbishop of Canterbury, when he was otherwise in residence at Lambeth Palace in London. Old Palace School in Croydon is on the site of the former Archbishop's palace. Later Addington Palace, also within the borough, was the Archbishop's palace. For many years it housed the Royal School of Church Music, but was sold off to be a hotel about 12 years ago. Other cathedrals in small places include St Davids, St Asaph, and Arundel (RC). But the prize for most insignificant place to house a cathedral surely goes to Skálholt, the seat of the senior bishop of Iceland, which just lies on its own in the countryside without even a village. Hallgrímskirkja in Reykjavík is often mistaken as the cathedral, but it isn't. Personally I think any place large enough to justify an underground railway is per se a city. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musical Sore Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 So is the English Channel a city? Perhaps one of its residents could give us the definitive answer to the question (whatever it was) about sailors and concertinas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterT Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 Though Croydon lies in the diocese of Canterbury, as a detached island of that diocese. This is because Croydon was formerly the country residence of the Archbishop of Canterbury, when he was otherwise in residence at Lambeth Palace in London. Hi Ivan, Well, I'm amazed just how much knowledge this thread is generating. I just hope we learn as much when the MC game actually starts! Just to pick up on one point; Croydon was in the diocese of Canterbury, and was the first overnight stop between Lambeth Palace and Canterbury, with each overnight stop having a Palace. However, whilst we still have a Bishop, Croydon got "transferred" from Canterbury to Southwark some years ago. As an interesting aside, each year the Mayor of Croydon is "elected" from amongst the members of the Political party ruling Croydon Council. The Bishop is a much longer-term appointment. For one year, we had both a black Mayor and a black Bishop of Croydon, reflecting the multi-cultural nature of our community. In my area of Croydon, almost 50% of the population are from non-British origin (well, maybe we all are, if you go back far enough!). What it does mean, however, is that I can walk through the streets and have absolutely no knowledge of what people are discussing. Regards, Peter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fidjit Posted January 31, 2008 Author Share Posted January 31, 2008 What it does mean, however, is that I can walk through the streets and have absolutely no knowledge of what people are discussing. Regards, Peter. Now what does that tell us about Peter T ??? Sorry Peter. Couldn't resist it. Chas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 For one year, we had both a black Mayor and a black Bishop of Croydon, reflecting the multi-cultural nature of our community. In my area of Croydon, almost 50% of the population are from non-British origin (well, maybe we all are, if you go back far enough!). What it does mean, however, is that I can walk through the streets and have absolutely no knowledge of what people are discussing. I can do that, and the only difference is age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterT Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 For one year, we had both a black Mayor and a black Bishop of Croydon, reflecting the multi-cultural nature of our community. In my area of Croydon, almost 50% of the population are from non-British origin (well, maybe we all are, if you go back far enough!). What it does mean, however, is that I can walk through the streets and have absolutely no knowledge of what people are discussing. I can do that, and the only difference is age. Well, I have that problem, too, with those who are conversing in English! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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