Non Concert Pitched Instruments

[Lawrence Reeves]

I was listening to some older recordings during the weekend, and it struck me that Eb was a very popular tuning in the 1970's and 80's. Tony Linane Noel Hill, Frankie Gavin etc. On the concertina end, I was wondering about the C#/ G# instruments. Were these in this key originally, or a retuned high pitch C / G ? The next question is who would have been doing these repairs and tunings in ireland at that time? Stephen Chambers?

[Stephen Chambers]

Lawrence,

 

Eb concertinas were very uncommon back then, and on one occasion I was sad to see the great Paddy Murphy unable to join in with a good session because it was in that pitch. I think I've only ever converted a couple of instruments to C#/G#, but various players have been known to use an Ab/Eb to play in Eb, including Noel Hill. Of course Noel does his own tuning, and is very proud of it.

[Lawrence Reeves]

Stephen, was the Hill / Linane recording done on an Ab Eb? My mind is spinning trying to think how Noel would have approached fingering some passages.

[richard]

I heard Noel Hill play his stunning sounding Jeffries Ab/Eb a few years ago at one of his summer school sessions in Oregon. He played the Bells of Tipperary among others on it.

 

It is possible that was the same instrument he used on "The Irish Concertina" .Noel plays The Bells of Tipperary with The Wise Maid on track #8.

 

During our classes Noel would use his C/G Wheatstone, but for concerts he would mainly use his C#/G# instrument. It seems many contemporary players play on C#/G# concertinas.

 

Is that because they feel the sharp instruments "cut through"?

 

Richard

Edited January 14, 2008 by richard

[Paul Read]

Are you talking about non-concert pitch or non-standard keys? It seems to me you're discussing the latter. I thought being out of tune didn't matter in Irish music

[Lawrence Reeves]

Non Concert in my opinion meant anything that was a higher. or lower key. Concert pitched pipes vs flat pitch, aka C#, C, B, or Bb. As for tuning in Irish music, I suppose that rhythm is most critical, but that could be a whole new discussion that I am not willing to deal with.

[David Barnert]

Are you talking about non-concert pitch or non-standard keys? It seems to me you're discussing the latter. I thought being out of tune didn't matter in Irish music

Classical (orchestral) musicians use the term "concert pitch" to refer to whether or not an instrument plays the same note that is written in the music. That is, if the music says C and you play a C, is the note that comes out a C? A violin is in concert pitch, but not a Bb clarinet (play a C and hear a Bb) or French horn (F). All the instruments are assumed to be tuned to the same standard (A=440 hz, or some other frequency).

 

But in the concertina world, it is common to see the term "concert pitch" to refer to whether or not an instrument is tuned to A=440.

 

Neither usage addresses the question of different temperaments.

[allan atlas]

FOLKS: seems to me we've been through this tuning/temperament business before. . . .either we DEFINE OUR TERMS or the discussion is futile..........Allan

[JimLucas]

Neither usage addresses the question of different temperaments.

In reference to either concertinas

or

C.net posters.

[Dana Johnson]

Lawrence,

 

Eb concertinas were very uncommon back then, and on one occasion I was sad to see the great Paddy Murphy unable to join in with a good session because it was in that pitch. I think I've only ever converted a couple of instruments to C#/G#, but various players have been known to use an Ab/Eb to play in Eb, including Noel Hill. Of course Noel does his own tuning, and is very proud of it.

Noel has a good number of great concertinas including a C#/ G# and the afore mentioned Ab /Eb. We did a bunch of recording one year and one of the tracks got messed up after he'd gone back home to Ireland. The next year we tried to do it over again only to discover that it had been done on the C# /G# the year before! Great pity because it was such a nice set of tunes. I wasn't under the impression that the C#G# had been retuned from a C/G. It would have been easier for Tony to tune down and less destructive to the instrument. He's often played with Frankie Gavin and I believe some of his recordings with Tony McMann are done on that instrument as well. I'd never get in a tuning contest with Noel. My instrument might be Possibly more exact when it comes to matching equal temperament, but his concertina would sound better. I use his advice now in tuning my instruments. He does have an incredible ear.

Dana

[Stephen Chambers]

... in the concertina world, it is common to see the term "concert pitch" to refer to whether or not an instrument is tuned to A=440.

In the Irish music world it signifies that an instrument is pitched in the key of D, rather than "flat" (usually relating to pipes in C#, C, B or Bb) or "Eb".

 

Stephen, was the Hill / Linane recording done on an Ab Eb? My mind is spinning trying to think how Noel would have approached fingering some passages.

No, I think he first used Ab/Eb on some tracks on The Irish Concertina, where the straight-row fingering made certain tunes easier to finger.

 

I think I've only ever converted a couple of instruments to C#/G#, but various players have been known to use an Ab/Eb to play in Eb, including Noel Hill. Of course Noel does his own tuning, and is very proud of it.

I wasn't under the impression that the C#G# had been retuned from a C/G. It would have been easier for Tony to tune down and less destructive to the instrument. He's often played with Frankie Gavin and I believe some of his recordings with Tony McMann are done on that instrument as well.

I've never seen nor heard of such a thing as an original (old) C#/G#, whilst carefully tuning up an Old Philharmonic (high pitch) C/G with good "meaty" reeds isn't too hard on them, though down is obviously (to a tuner) kinder. De Dannan (amongst others) have tended to play in Eb because of it's brightness and additional "cut" (though some consider it an "elite" key to stop other people joining in), so much so that you might sometimes hear it referred to as "Galway concert pitch", whist Tony McMahon plays an "Eb" D/D# box because that is what his hero Joe Cooley played - at a time when "concert pitch" C#/D accordions were uncommon.

 

Edited for clarity.

Edited January 15, 2008 by Stephen Chambers

[Paul Read]

Non Concert in my opinion meant anything that was a higher. or lower key. Concert pitched pipes vs flat pitch, aka C#, C, B, or Bb. As for tuning in Irish music, I suppose that rhythm is most critical, but that could be a whole new discussion that I am not willing to deal with.

That bit was a joke....ah well....

[Dirge]

Paul, were you thinking of the expression often used when tuning " That's close enough for jazz."

[David Levine]

Tom Driscoll, a lovely player from Co Clare, has an amazing Dipper tuned C#/G#.

Clear, lovely, and loud - as you might expect.

[Dana Johnson]

I heard Noel Hill play his stunning sounding Jeffries Ab/Eb a few years ago at one of his summer school sessions in Oregon. He played the Bells of Tipperary among others on it.

 

It is possible that was the same instrument he used on "The Irish Concertina" .Noel plays The Bells of Tipperary with The Wise Maid on track #8.

 

During our classes Noel would use his C/G Wheatstone, but for concerts he would mainly use his C#/G# instrument. It seems many contemporary players play on C#/G# concertinas.

 

Is that because they feel the sharp instruments "cut through"?

 

Richard

That was the same instrument he played on those tracks on The Irish Concertina. The C/G Noel brings to class is a great instrument, but is a bit leaky, has some worn lever pivots and isn't ideal for concerts. He usually brings one or two others that are in better playing shape for class concerts and any others he has scheduled. For cutting through, his D/A is pretty good.

Dana

[Marien]

...it struck me that Eb was a very popular tuning in the 1970's and 80's.

 

In ireland I (on very few occasions) had the feeling that a bunch of session players intentionally played in Eb to avoid other session visitors (who had D instruments) to join in.

[Stephen Chambers]

In ireland I (on very few occasions) had the feeling that a bunch of session players intentionally played in Eb to avoid other session visitors (who had D instruments) to join in.

Like I said, it is sometimes considered an "elite" key, to stop other people joining in, but Eb flutes are easier to play and sound brighter than "concert flutes", fiddle players generally like tuning up, and some old accordions are pitched in Eb. There can be various reasons for it.

 

For that matter, I've been to "C# sessions" too!

[Wally Carroll]

I asked Noel about his C#/G# instrument a couple years ago, and he said that it was originally a C/G that he tuned up.