Dieppe Posted January 1, 2008 Share Posted January 1, 2008 There is a Wheatstone English Concertina (48 keys, 1950s) on eBay that I've seen in person (i.e. it's real, and it does exist). I had gone to this particular eBay auction house to look at the previous Wheatstone English Concertina that just got to be too rich for my blood. In any case, this one has a small bellows leak in the leather bellows somewhere. I liked the OTHER one better, but this one does seem to be in as good of shape as the pictures indicate. I didn't get a good feel for how in tune it was because of the wheeze from the bellows. I asked the seller in this action about whether the bellows leak, so I'm curious what they'll say. Just FYI is all. As many scams as go one out there, at least I personally know that this particular one does exist. And as for the bastard who outbid me on the other one---I hope you enjoy it! It's damn near perfect, though there are a few reeds that are slightly out of tune---but only noticeable to a discerning ear. Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Adey Posted January 1, 2008 Share Posted January 1, 2008 There is a Wheatstone English Concertina (48 keys, 1950s) on eBay that I've seen in person (i.e. it's real, and it does exist). I had gone to this particular eBay auction house to look at the previous Wheatstone English Concertina that just got to be too rich for my blood. In any case, this one has a small bellows leak in the leather bellows somewhere. I liked the OTHER one better, but this one does seem to be in as good of shape as the pictures indicate. I didn't get a good feel for how in tune it was because of the wheeze from the bellows. I asked the seller in this action about whether the bellows leak, so I'm curious what they'll say. Just FYI is all. As many scams as go one out there, at least I personally know that this particular one does exist. And as for the bastard who outbid me on the other one---I hope you enjoy it! It's damn near perfect, though there are a few reeds that are slightly out of tune---but only noticeable to a discerning ear. Patrick Patrick, The description of this instrument as a tenor treble is, I suggest, suspect. A tenor treble would usually have 56 keys and run from the C below middle C upwards for 4 octaves. A treble would most frequently have 48 keys and the range would be from the G below middle C upwards for 3 and a half octaves to C. The range given, from E to C, and the number of keys suggests to me that this is probably a treble and that the seller has not in fact found the lowest note. I wonder what else he doesn't know much about ? The ledger entry doesn't throw any light on things I'm afraid. Buyer beware, or at least be cautious! John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveS Posted January 1, 2008 Share Posted January 1, 2008 The ledger states the model is a 6E A look at this link http://www.concertina.com/pricelists/wheat...t-All-c1956.pdf will reveal that a 6E is indeed a 48 key tenor-treble. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Adey Posted January 1, 2008 Share Posted January 1, 2008 The ledger states the model is a 6E A look at this link http://www.concertina.com/pricelists/wheat...t-All-c1956.pdf will reveal that a 6E is indeed a 48 key tenor-treble. Steve Steve, Thanks for this; I stand corrected. However, the range should still be from C, not from E. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dieppe Posted January 1, 2008 Author Share Posted January 1, 2008 Personally I'm still wondering about the "steel vibrators"... ;-) Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dieppe Posted January 1, 2008 Author Share Posted January 1, 2008 There is a Wheatstone English Concertina (48 keys, 1950s) on eBay that I've seen in person (i.e. it's real, and it does exist). I had gone to this particular eBay auction house to look at the previous Wheatstone English Concertina that just got to be too rich for my blood. In any case, this one has a small bellows leak in the leather bellows somewhere. I liked the OTHER one better, but this one does seem to be in as good of shape as the pictures indicate. I didn't get a good feel for how in tune it was because of the wheeze from the bellows. I asked the seller in this action about whether the bellows leak, so I'm curious what they'll say. Just FYI is all. As many scams as go one out there, at least I personally know that this particular one does exist. And as for the bastard who outbid me on the other one---I hope you enjoy it! It's damn near perfect, though there are a few reeds that are slightly out of tune---but only noticeable to a discerning ear. Patrick Patrick, The description of this instrument as a tenor treble is, I suggest, suspect. A tenor treble would usually have 56 keys and run from the C below middle C upwards for 4 octaves. A treble would most frequently have 48 keys and the range would be from the G below middle C upwards for 3 and a half octaves to C. The range given, from E to C, and the number of keys suggests to me that this is probably a treble and that the seller has not in fact found the lowest note. I wonder what else he doesn't know much about ? The ledger entry doesn't throw any light on things I'm afraid. Buyer beware, or at least be cautious! John There are two instruments. The 56 button one sold already, and it's the 48 button one that I'm talking about. Yeah, it's just a treble concertina I believe. The 56 button one seemed to have just a extended treble range when I played it. The 48 button one has the leaky bellows. Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonard Posted January 1, 2008 Share Posted January 1, 2008 The ledger states the model is a 6E A look at this link http://www.concertina.com/pricelists/wheat...t-All-c1956.pdf will reveal that a 6E is indeed a 48 key tenor-treble. Steve Steve, Thanks for this; I stand corrected. However, the range should still be from C, not from E. John I'm still puzzled about model 6E, the 48 key tenor-treble: What's the difference between a tenor and a 48 key tenor-treble? Is a tenor in the key of F (with a Bflat in the middle rows)? Leonard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted January 1, 2008 Share Posted January 1, 2008 (edited) What's the difference between a tenor and a 48 key tenor-treble?Is a tenor in the key of F (with a Bflat in the middle rows)? The difference is the person describing the instrument. There is at least one person (no longer active on Concertina.net) who has claimed that "tenor" by itself means an instrument with a central key of F, but I have found nothing in other sources -- including price lists from Wheatstone -- to support this. And on the current Wheatstone web site, it says (the emphasis is mine): No. 5E Ebony. Tenor range Aeola, 48 keys from tenor C to F. (Also available as Tenor in F). 7-fold bellows. 6 3/4" Octagonal. Edited January 2, 2008 by JimLucas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Chambers Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 What's the difference between a tenor and a 48 key tenor-treble?Is a tenor in the key of F (with a Bflat in the middle rows)? It may be worth noting that "tenor" is the old name for the viola, an instrument that sounds a fifth lower than the violin, so that thus a tenor concertina should sound a fifth lower than a treble (which has the range of a violin), and hence some of them have been pitched in F. But definitions of a tenor seem to have been fluid, so that in the mid-19th century it seems to have been virtually synonymous with a baritone, whilst later, since "proper" tenors appeared, there has been confusion (at the highest level!) between tenor and tenor-treble. The simplest defintion (which I have often heard used) might be to call an instrument with 48 keys a tenor, but if it has the upper notes of a treble (56 or 64 keys) then it becomes a tenor-treble, though you could make a case for calling the F instrument tenor and the C one tenor-treble (a treble that goes down through the tenor range). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonard Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 (edited) Rereading the topic "The Different Types of English" I found another variable that can determine the difference between the Tenor and the Tenor-Treble: the position of the keys in relation to the thumb-strap. In that topic Jim explained the difference between the Baritone and the Baritone-Treble: A baritone which sounds an octave lower for the same fingering as the treble is simply a "baritone". A baritone on which notes in the treble range have the same fingering as on the treble but which continues the pattern of the English keyboard downward into the baritone range is called a "baritone-treble", "baritone" at the beginning to indicate the low end of the range, but followed by "treble" to indicate that the fingering in the treble range remains unchanged. (And for the same geometrical patttern of buttons on the two sides, such an instrument extends down to F at the bottom, rather than G.) So on a Baritone-treble is the position of middle C, like on a Treble, in line with the middle of the left-hand thumb strap. On a Baritone is that the position for C below middle C. A 48K treble extended down to Baritone-range needs 14 extra keys at the lower end. So a standard Baritone-Treble has 62 keys. I suppose, that a 56K BT has its keys in the same position as the 62K BT, but omitting the highest 6 keys. And according to the wheatstone-pricelist-1935 a 64K BT is extended at the lower end with 2 keys to F (that's what Jim is referring at in the quote above) My assumption for the Tenor(-Treble): As the Baritone is a octave lower then the Treble, the Tenor is a fifth lower. The Tenor-Treble has its middle C in the middle of the left-hand thumb strap, just like the Treble, and is extended down to C below middle C. That needs 8 keys, what makes a "standard" Tenor-Treble a 56K instrument. A "true" Tenor with 48 keys, has its F below middle C in the middle of the left-hand thumb strap, where the Treble has its middle C. On a 48 key TT is the position of the keys like on the 56K TT, but omitting the higher 8 keys. So in comparison with a 48K "true" Tenor, on a 48K TT all the keys are shifted one position to lower end. The 48K Tenor-Treble from the start of the topic, is, according to the Horniman ledgers a model 6E. According to the wheatstone-pricelist-1956 is model 6E a 48K TT. On the picture of the left-hand side you can see, that the keys in comparison with a 48K Treble are shifted one position to the low side: next to the middle of the thumb strap are not F# and F, but C# and C. This makes me believe that the discriminating difference between a Tenor and Tenor-Treble (as between a Baritone and a Baritone-Treble) is the position of the middle C key in relation to the thumb strap. What do you think? Leonard Edited January 4, 2008 by Leonard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen DOUGLASS Posted January 15, 2008 Share Posted January 15, 2008 There is a Wheatstone English Concertina (48 keys, 1950s) on eBay that I've seen in person (i.e. it's real, and it does exist). I had gone to this particular eBay auction house to look at the previous Wheatstone English Concertina that just got to be too rich for my blood. In any case, this one has a small bellows leak in the leather bellows somewhere. I liked the OTHER one better, but this one does seem to be in as good of shape as the pictures indicate. I didn't get a good feel for how in tune it was because of the wheeze from the bellows. I asked the seller in this action about whether the bellows leak, so I'm curious what they'll say. Just FYI is all. As many scams as go one out there, at least I personally know that this particular one does exist. And as for the bastard who outbid me on the other one---I hope you enjoy it! It's damn near perfect, though there are a few reeds that are slightly out of tune---but only noticeable to a discerning ear. Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen DOUGLASS Posted January 15, 2008 Share Posted January 15, 2008 There is a Wheatstone 56 key on ebay which looks exactly like the one I just bought a couple of weeks ago.(they have used the same photograph,but its a different seller)there are also a couple of grammatical errors in the text, be careful if your interested in this one...make some inquiries first,it may be fine..... but be warned. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edmarris Posted January 16, 2008 Share Posted January 16, 2008 There is a Wheatstone 56 key on ebay which looks exactly like the one I just bought a couple of weeks ago.(they have used the same photograph,but its a different seller)there are also a couple of grammatical errors in the text, be careful if your interested in this one...make some inquiries first,it may be fine..... but be warned.Steve Thanks for that Steve. I almost bought it again. Seller sent me these specs: Mod. 5E, Ser.# 35729, purchased 1950, etc., and 5 additional photos, listing her name as Sali Thom. The invoice that came requested Western Union, I sent it to ebay and they replied immediately that it was fraudulent. Watch out for this one, whoever sees a beautiful Aeola listed and seller offers a private buy it now through personal email, saying that everything will go through ebay. The invoice was a very convincing ebay forgery. Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dieppe Posted January 16, 2008 Author Share Posted January 16, 2008 There is a Wheatstone English Concertina (48 keys, 1950s) on eBay that I've seen in person (i.e. it's real, and it does exist). I had gone to this particular eBay auction house to look at the previous Wheatstone English Concertina that just got to be too rich for my blood. Hey! Were you the one who bought the 56 button Wheatstone from AuctionDepot LA a few weeks back? I would have gotten it too, if it weren't for that dog and those meddling teenagers! I mean, it just went over my set amount. How are you liking it? Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen DOUGLASS Posted January 16, 2008 Share Posted January 16, 2008 Yep, Its a very nice looking instrument and is in great shape...one or two keys(reeds) need tweaking...but apart form that its just fine. I'm a newcomer to the sport... but I play other trad instruments Northumbrian Pipes and fiddle..so I was able to jump straight into the Alistair Anderson tutor and recognise the repetoire...we'll see how it goes...if its anything like my other instruments it will be an obsession in two weeks...I already have it on the road with me while I'm working. Sorry to anyone who didnt win on ebay..but at least it went to someone who will play it...(not too well just yet though). Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dieppe Posted January 17, 2008 Author Share Posted January 17, 2008 Yep, Its a very nice looking instrument and is in great shape...one or two keys(reeds) need tweaking...but apart form that its just fine. I'm a newcomer to the sport... but I play other trad instruments Northumbrian Pipes and fiddle..so I was able to jump straight into the Alistair Anderson tutor and recognise the repetoire...we'll see how it goes...if its anything like my other instruments it will be an obsession in two weeks...I already have it on the road with me while I'm working. Sorry to anyone who didnt win on ebay..but at least it went to someone who will play it...(not too well just yet though). Steve *sniff* I didn't win! Well, if you ever get tired of it, lemme know. From the little I saw of it, it was a fine instrument! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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