Having Concertina Re-tuned

[Marklar]

Hi,

 

I just got my first concertina, and it's a vintage Crabb in Ab/Eb. I need to send it out for restoration, but at the same time I would like to have it re-tuned to G/D so I can play it in sessions. I've heard that re-tuning the concertina can damage the reeds. Is this true? Will it damage the instrument to have it re-tuned in this way?

 

-- Eric

[Pete Dunk]

Theo has a Lachenal Ab/Eb for sale here. I'm sure he wouldn't mention the possibility of retuning to G/D if there was a significant risk of damaging the instrument.

 

Pete

[Ken_Coles]

This is actually a long-standing debate. You'll find lots of old threads here if you search. Even repairers/restorers cover a variety of views on this. Some of them will tell you considerations vary between a Lachenal and a top Wheatstone, Crabb, or Jeffries.

 

Ken

[d.elliott]

Hi,

 

I just got my first concertina, and it's a vintage Crabb in Ab/Eb. I need to send it out for restoration, but at the same time I would like to have it re-tuned to G/D so I can play it in sessions. I've heard that re-tuning the concertina can damage the reeds. Is this true? Will it damage the instrument to have it re-tuned in this way?

 

-- Eric

 

 

Eric

 

One consideration is if the instrument is in its original tuning or not, and if that tuning is based upon the modern pitch, A=440Hz.

 

Many concertinas were tuned to one of the old piches with notes about half a tone sharp. I would recommnd that you see someone with a tuning meter, preferably an experience repairer. You may find that, after tuning down again to G-D, you end up with an instument that has been tuned down the best part of a full tone. This need not be a total show stopper, however its worth taking advice before you finally decide.

 

Dave

[Paul Groff]

Hi Eric,

 

Depending on the actual condition of your concertina (as David notes), a really good concertina tuner can usually tune an Ab/Eb concertina down to G/D. I have done it myself (though I wouldn't do it to yours if I were the owner) and I actually got great results in those cases when I determined that the reeds could take it and when I did it with all the skill I could muster. The tone of the instrument (though it can still be great) has always been different, and sometimes the response (though it can still be great) is different too. Sometimes reversible re-reeding is a better option, though usually more expensive, and excellent new G/Ds are easily available today if you can be patient.

 

Of course, as the legal owner of the instrument it is your option if and how you alter it. There are no "concertina protection" laws such as we have for pets, etc., that codify standards of ethical behavior. But as you might find out if you take Ken Coles' advice, I am one (former) concertina repairman who has sometimes used this forum to try to suggest that there are some ethical issues to consider in retuning fine, original concertinas.

 

First, an aside: I love home-made instruments and home-made reworkings of instruments. That's totally traditional in all the musical styles I love, and I do love musical traditions and passing them on much more than I worship the instruments themselves. Most of the instruments I own and play myself (not only concertinas) are hot-rodded or modified from their original condition when made and first sold. I have a 1950s Kay Thin-Twin ("Jimmy Reed guitar") that most collectors would have wanted to keep dead stock, but mine has had a neck reset, new (non-brass) frets, altered wiring, etc. The great raw sound that made Jimmy Reed and Johnny Young love to play blues on these and the visual vibe are still there, but now mine plays comfortably for hours and has a decent string angle over the bridge. Similarly I have hot-rodded many Lachenal and Jones anglo concertinas, to try to get a great traditional-reed sound and playability into less-expensive package for serious students. I still like those hot-rod Lachenals although the desperate need for them has abated a little with all the new makers of accordion-reeded concertinas.

 

But on the other hand here I am again on this forum (at the urging of one of my email correspondents) urging patience to the discoverer of a fine vintage concertina that is not in today's most popular keys and pitches.

 

One problem with the fine vintage concertinas and their original tunings is that so little is known about them. I am confident that there are dead-stock Jimmy Reed guitars out there and that the "Kay guys" who collect and study them know all their specs, what makes them tick, how to clone them almost exactly (if someone would pay for that) and how to make something new that looks and sounds very similar but is upgraded in any way the maker or player wants. As far as I have been able to learn, this depth of knowledge is not yet there for the pre- 1939 anglo concertinas. I have been able to find and document the original tunings of some of these concertinas, but in most cases when they have been restored in the past 40 years the first act of the tuner has been to wipe the slate clean of all the historically important information (and brilliant craftsmanship) that went into the original voicing of reeds, determining of keys, pitch, and temperament, and the final tuning of these instruments. In most cases old anglos were *not* tuned to any common modern scale, but to very cleverly compromised tunings that optimized the sound of the intervals, chords, and keys most used by the players (and related to the note layout of the instruments). As a way to communicate vividly my feelings about this subject, I suggest that -- to me -- retuning some of these fine anglos is like knocking down a medieval cathedral with its brilliant architecture, design, workmanship, and history -- all of which speak to us about the people of a time that is gone -- and replacing it with a stripmall storefront church. Does the job, might even be preferable for many reasons (I am *not* advocating or denigrating any religious tradition here), but what a loss as well that would be. To me. And in most cases the tuners, dealers, and/or owners of the retuned anglos had no idea what they were throwing away in the process, so none of the original tunings (and also some other information that allows the original specs of the reeds to be determined) were documented.

 

I could add many other points to the argument.... if you want you can look up my old posts for those. Here I will just repeat and develop one particular idea I have always argued, and then make an observation about what happens to many "discovery" concertinas (those that are found in largely original condition by those with no previous interest in the concertina).

 

1. Tired old point: The value of a concertina (like anything else) is multidimensional. Its value in the big sense cannot be captured by the amount of money it will realize this week in a sale on ebay. Its value is not *only* what someone will pay for it, either before or after it is "restored." It may be valued by me for one feature, by you for a different feature, by someone else not at all. It may be worth the most money today to someone who wants to "do X to/with it." But tomorrow it may be worth vastly more to someone who wants to "learn Y from it." Etc, etc. To me this all seems obvious yet often other members of this forum have disagreed. The last five letters of the previous sentence, coupled with impatience (Kafka's "only sin") have often blinded concertina owners and dealers to the many dimensions of a concertina's value. As I once reminded the readers of this forum, there is a story that when the dead sea scrolls were first discovered, the discoverer knew he had something very valuable to him and proceeded to benefit from that value: burning some as fuel for a fire.

 

2. Observation about discovery concertinas: I don't know how you would search for the relevant threads on concertina.net, but I think there are several over the past few years whose progress illustrates something I have often seen in the non-cyber-world. Guy finds a fine vintage unrestored concertina, finds out it is worth some money to those who know and play them, thinks about maybe playing it (or not), maybe cashing it in (or not). Often he is soon online here (or on the phone to me) seeking information and advice, decides to restore it (and restoration can involve much alteration, sometimes irreversible, and if done by a DIY-er or on the cheap can really hurt the instruments). Then in short order the guy is back here or on ebay trying to flip the thing, having lost interest. All this means that again and again, instruments that slept peacefully for fifty or a hundred years, carrying priceless historical information from their brilliant craftsman makers, were hastily, permanently altered to suit the decisions of someone with very little knowledge or longterm interest in the concertina.

 

Now I know many of the longterm members of this forum are exceptions to this story -- mostly, you are the ones who stuck with the concertina :-) But I see the above scenario so often that it becomes discouraging, reminding me of the developer who buys a pristine wilderness, permanently alters it, sells it and moves on with no personal committment in the place to weigh against the damage he did to its previous history. To me this "find, modify, and flip" attitude is very different from the natural, creative, and essential compromises and alterations that a serious committed player will always make to his instruments.

 

Remember there are now great playing, good sounding 3 row anglos made in any key or pitch you want for $2000 or less. No longer does anyone *have* to retune a found, original Jeffries or Crabb to get a decent concert-pitch instrument for learning.

 

The decisions you make in restoring this instrument may well be the most important events in its life since it was made, and may irreversibly determine what course its future takes. Learn and wait, and you keep the option to change it later.

 

Best of luck no matter what. I do hope this concertina stimulates you to learn to play. If you become a lifetime player, shucks that would excuse almost anything that happens to any instrument since (to me) serious players are actually much more rare and valuable than even pro quality concertinas.

 

Paul

Edited January 1, 2008 by Paul Groff

[Chris Timson]

Worth pointing out that the great majority of G/Ds around today were originally Ab/Eb (probably in old pitch) retuned down. Whether your instrument is suitable for this is a call only your restorer can make. A good one will give good advice on this, so choose carefully who will do the work for you.

 

Chris

[Michael Reid]

I love the sound of Ab/Eb instruments, like the one used by Micheal O Raghallaigh for several cuts on The Nervous Man. And some of my favorite non-concertina recordings are of tunes that have been pitched for Bb pipes (and hence sit well on an Ab/Eb concertina), like those on Mick O'Brien and Caomhin O Raghallaigh's CD, Kitty Lie Over. If I ever have the money to buy an "extra" concertina, I will look for an Ab/Eb -- and hope that not all the vintage ones will have been retuned.

 

[Edited for clarity]

Edited January 2, 2008 by Michael Reid

[Greg Jowaisas]

I will second Michael's opinion of the beautiful sound of Ab/Eb. As some of you know I have been hunting for a really nice Bb Jeffries for some time now.

In one of my calls to Chris Algar he played a Bb over the phone for me. We both agreed it was not what I was looking for. Then he said, "But this Ab Jeffries has quite a lovely sound." Upon hearing it I had to concur and a sale was made. I have never regretted that inadvertent purchase.

 

Marklar, I counseled getting to know your vintage instrument before irrevocably changing it. Paul Groff has a great point. There are many fine sounding and playing G/D options out there before you rush to modify your Crabb.

 

Paul is also correct in that it is indeed your instrument, and you are free to decide its future. Wouldn't it be a good idea to collect all the information and playing experience that you can before making a permanent decision?

 

And in any event, welcome to the concertina world. Enjoy the journey!

 

Greg

[Marklar]

Wouldn't it be a good idea to collect all the information and playing experience that you can before making a permanent decision?

 

Yes, that's really what I'm leaning towards. Other than a few reeds that require too much air to sound, it's in playable condition. I've bought a DVD for beginning concertina (the John Williams one from Homespun). I can follow along and use the same fingerings as he's using on the C/G and I can also transpose to what they would be on a G/D.

 

So anyway, having my concertina in Ab/Eb isn't going to stop me from learning tunes, and that's all I can really do right now anyway. It will be a while before I really have to worry about playing concertina in a session, and I could buy another concertina for that purpose if I get to that point and feel serious enough about playing with others.

 

Also, I do like the way it sounds. I think I'll keep it the way it is and learn to play it for now; I'm going to put off the restoration for a while and I don't want to make any decisions about re-tuning it until I know how to play it and know what I'd be losing if I go away from Ab/Eb. Maybe I'll like it better that way anyway, and besides, there's no hurry.

 

--Eric

[Greg Jowaisas]

Eric,

We all appreciate your listening and weighing advice and options. Sometimes the cnet. "old hands" might seem to be telling others what to do. It is really just sharing experience, previous mistakes, hard won knowledge and opinions. In the end, you are the one who has to make the decisions that are good for you, your instrument and your music.

 

I have only been a part of the anglo universe for 4 years, but it has been a time of intense emersion. My anglo catylist was acquiring a couple of quality instruments at a backyard auction. I only had a vague notion as to what I had bought. Paul Groff was very nice enough to give me the good counsel to take my time, find out what and how I wanted to play before making a decision as to what to do with the instruments I had acquired. Great advice and worth passing on.

 

It appears you are willing to consider opinions and most importantly, to take your time before making one time decisions. I, and I'm sure other cnetters, salute you.

 

Enjoy your Ab Crabb. Have a great adventure exploring the way you may want to play Irish or another style of concertina. Keep your eyes open for another instrument. As your concertina experience deepens the path for you and your Crabb will become more clear.

 

It is indeed a journey and I wish you well.

 

Greg

[m3838]

I love the sound of Ab/Eb instruments,

 

And besides, after it's retuned, you may discover that you no longer have interest in concertina's sound. I once made huge mistake by sending 20 button in Eb back to the seller, because it had torn bellows, that seller didn't notice. I got my refund, but never again I was able to find an instrument with such a lovely tone. At the time I wasn't aware of the tone differences between the tunings. But the important idea is that you can learn all the tunes in any keys by transposing them digitally, so you can play along, or if you readiing, just assume you have C/G or G/D and read from the score. That's the beauty of push/pull diatonics.

As a friend of mine, piano player, said: "it's not fair".

[Dieppe]

In this same Re-tuning vein, I need to get my Wheatstone tuned. I'm allegedly in the queue for the ButtonBox, but it seems to be taking forever. Are there any other recommended United States concertina tuners that anyone could recommend? I'd really like to play my instrument without cringing!

 

 

Patrick

[Wally Carroll]

In this same Re-tuning vein, I need to get my Wheatstone tuned. I'm allegedly in the queue for the ButtonBox, but it seems to be taking forever. Are there any other recommended United States concertina tuners that anyone could recommend? I'd really like to play my instrument without cringing!

 

 

Patrick

I would recommend Greg Jowaisas for this. He has tuned many high quality instruments with great success. He lives about 20 minutes from me and I often get to play the instruments he works on before and after the work is done. Not only will he tune them but he will improve upon how the reeds are set up (if any improvement is needed/possible). They always come back playing more responsive and better balanced than before. In fact, I like his work so much that I am currently working on getting a new building so that I can bring him into my own operations.

 

-Wally