Anyone Seen These Papers Before?

[accordionmagic]

Hello everyone,

 

Has anyone come across this pattern before? I am restoring this 31 key Anglo Lach Number 200234.

So it's 1930 something at the end of production but are those Swastikas or 'patternations'........... or what.

 

I dont suppose Lachenal would have got away with this after 1939 or even earlier? any ideas?

 

Anyway, should I replace these five fold bellows for a new set, would it put off potential buyers if they were left on after some repair?

Before anyone asks, they are definately original.

 

Cheers

 

Roy

[Stephen Chambers]

Roy,

 

Yes, I've seen them before on late-period Lachenals; the instrument probably also has buttons made of Erinoid plastic, a square fibre-board case, may be stamped MADE IN ENGLAND on its side, and could even have ferrous reed shoes?

 

But I can't imagine how anyone could interpret the design as "swastikas" , it's simply Art Deco, like Odeon cinemas used to be, and would have been considered very fashionable and "modern" at the time. I think those papers are very attractive.

[JimLucas]

Has anyone come across this pattern before? I am restoring this 31 key Anglo Lach Number 200234.

So it's 1930 something at the end of production but are those Swastikas or 'patternations'........... or what.

The "swastikas", if that's what you want to call them seem to be incidental, an artifact of the way larger design elements meet at their corners. In fact, if you look again you should see that there are equal numbers of right-facing and left-facing "swastikas". Both versions have been common design elements in many human cultures since long (thousands of years) before the German Nazi party adopted the right-facing one as their symbol.

 

I dont suppose Lachenal would have got away with this after 1939 or even earlier? any ideas?

No, I don't think they would have gotten away with it more than five years after they closed.

 

 

Before anyone asks, they are definately original.

What makes you so sure? My guess is that the papers aren't Lachenal originals, but someone's personal fancy, either put on by special request or additions/replacements at some time after the instrument left the factory. Note that the papers are not all identical and individually printed, but apparently cut from a much larger sheet covered in the same design.

 

Anyway, should I replace these five fold bellows for a new set, would it put off potential buyers if they were left on after some repair?

I suppose a few potential buyers might be put off, but I doubt that most would care, some might prefer the individuality, and many might not even notice the "swastika" if it weren't pointed out to them. In fact, I'm not sure I would have noticed. As I said, I'm sure it's an incidental artifact of the larger design, which reminds me of tweed.

[JimLucas]

Before anyone asks, they are definately original.

What makes you so sure? My guess is that the papers aren't Lachenal originals, but someone's personal fancy, either put on by special request or additions/replacements at some time after the instrument left the factory. Note that the papers are not all identical and individually printed, but apparently cut from a much larger sheet covered in the same design.

 

Yes, I've seen them before on late-period Lachenals; the instrument probably also has buttons made of Erinoid plastic, a square fibre-board case, may be stamped MADE IN ENGLAND on its side, and could even have ferrous reed shoes?

Interesting. I bow to Stephen's superior experience. Sounds like some interesting things were happening in the late days of Lachenal. A pity we don't have more documentation.

[accordionmagic]

OK everyone, thanks for the replies, I wasnt actually insisting that this was some kind of Nazi party Lachenal but just wondered if it was a Lachenal standard paper toward the end of production.

 

Yes, I've seen them before on late-period Lachenals; the instrument probably also has buttons made of Erinoid plastic, a square fibre-board case, may be stamped MADE IN ENGLAND on its side, and could even have ferrous reed shoes?

 

Yes to the buttons, fibre box is hexagonal, shoes are brass, MADE IN ENGLAND....yes its there.

 

But I can't imagine how anyone could interpret the design as "swastikas" , it's simply Art Deco, like Odeon cinemas used to be, and would have been considered very fashionable and "modern" at the time. I think those papers are very attractive.

 

I do understand the history of the symbol, if I didnt say 'Swastikas' how would you know what I meant?

The design might have been considered fashionable at the time but taste is a personal thing ofcourse.

 

The "swastikas", if that's what you want to call them seem to be incidental, an artifact of the way larger design elements meet at their corners. In fact, if you look again you should see that there are equal numbers of right-facing and left-facing "swastikas".

 

Yep

 

No, I don't think they would have gotten away with it more than five years after they closed.

 

Humour

 

I think if you don't mention the word "swastikas" while showing the concertina to anyone, I think they wouldn't mention "swastikas" either. To me it looks like a woven chair seat...under...over...under...over. Try to look at it differently.

 

I suppose a few potential buyers might be put off, but I doubt that most would care, some might prefer the individuality, and many might not even notice the "swastika" if it weren't pointed out to them. In fact, I'm not sure I would have noticed. As I said, I'm sure it's an incidental artifact of the larger design, which reminds me of tweed.

 

Hmmm, I've tried to ignore them but they wont go away! so far, no one has missed it, all I need to say is "what do you think"........

If my tweed jacket had that pattern on it I wouldnt bloody visit Germany!

 

Cheers everyone

 

Roy

[Stephen Chambers]

... it's 1930 something at the end of production but are those Swastikas or 'patternations'........... or what.

The "swastikas", if that's what you want to call them seem to be incidental, an artifact of the way larger design elements meet at their corners. In fact, if you look again you should see that there are equal numbers of right-facing and left-facing "swastikas". Both versions have been common design elements in many human cultures since long (thousands of years) before the German Nazi party adopted the right-facing one as their symbol.

 

I dont suppose Lachenal would have got away with this after 1939 or even earlier? any ideas?

As a matter of fact Hohner, who "flew the (Party) flag" prominently around their factory during "The Emergency" (as WW2 was known in neutral Ireland) got away with it for many years after the War. Take a look at the design displayed either side of the bass buttons on their Black Dot accordions:

 

 

It was there on the first illustration of a Black Dot in May 1934, and continued until relatively recently...

[Dirge]

I can't see clear swastikas even having been told. I think the papers are a nice period piece of the instrument and getting rid of them would be vandalism. Don't substitute political correctness for thought, and damage it, Roy! That really IS the Nazi route.

[accordionmagic]

Stephen,

 

Yes, I've also seen these markings........ many times, but never associated them with.......well, anything! but thanks for pointing it out.

Regarding my phrase " get away with it"; perhaps a bad choice of words. My real point was that perhaps the Brits amongst others would have preferred not to see these particular symbols during WWII even though Lachenal and the Brits would at the time (before the war) have considered the 'pattern' a completely innocent one and quite rightly so.

 

Unfortunately, despite the immensely long and varied history of the symbol prior to WWII, it's meaning was changed dramatically by the Nazi's during WWII and is banned in Germany to this day!

 

The following quote sums it all up;

 

"Sixty years after World War II, few symbols are more immediately recognizable and more laden with horrific, historical baggage than the swastika. It stands for the Nazi machinery of murder, for the genocide perpetrated against European Jewry and the continent's Sinti and Roma population -- not to mention world history's most violent dictatorship. In Germany at least."

 

You can read the rest here, http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,337722,00.html

 

So actually it's not just me!

 

Dirge,

 

I'm sorry you cant see them but hey, good for you. If you like the pattern for what it is, just that, a pattern, then thats fine.

 

I must tell you this little story though............

 

In my former life as an engineer, I was priviledged enough to travel the world and worked in South Korea at the POSCO steel plant in Pohang a couple of times. During one stay I ventured into town to find some western food and as I walked through the high street I could see in the distance a flag jutting from a shop front, it was a black swastika on a white circle on a red background! As I neared the shop, the flag waved in the breaze and I tried to anticipate what on earth it could be, could it be the South Korean Nazi headquarters? surely not, did the Koreans get involved in WWII? I know they had big problems with the Japs, were they on our side? I eventually reached the shop and stood facing it, people walked in front of me and behind me as I stared at the clothes in the shop window and the sign over the door which said.........HITLER JEANS

 

Work that one out unbelievable! The shop is there!

 

This is a very sensitive subject in the west and must never be understated!

 

I'm not sure whether to restore these strange bellows to proper working condition rather than replace them but I do also think that the papers are a nice period piece of the instrument!

 

Cheers for now.

[d.elliott]

 

What makes you so sure? My guess is that the papers aren't Lachenal originals, but someone's personal fancy, either put on by special request or additions/replacements at some time after the instrument left the factory. Note that the papers are not all identical and individually printed, but apparently cut from a much larger sheet covered in the same design".

 

 

Jim, Stephen

 

 

I have seen this design two or three times now, the last being about three months ago, always on Lachenal Anglos, and always late models.

 

In each case there was no sign of re-badging to an instrument outlet, nor any sign of these papers being stuck on top of others. I agree about the papers being cut from a larger design, much as the dot & cross ones, the star pattern and several other designs appear to have been.

 

I think I must agree with SC on this one.

 

Dave

[JimLucas]

But I can't imagine how anyone could interpret the design as "swastikas" , it's simply Art Deco, like Odeon cinemas used to be, and would have been considered very fashionable and "modern" at the time. I think those papers are very attractive.

I think if you don't mention the word "swastikas" while showing the concertina to anyone, I think they wouldn't mention "swastikas" either. To me it looks like a woven chair seat...under...over...under...over. Try to look at it differently.

I suppose a few potential buyers might be put off, but I doubt that most would care, some might prefer the individuality, and many might not even notice the "swastika" if it weren't pointed out to them. In fact, I'm not sure I would have noticed. As I said, I'm sure it's an incidental artifact of the larger design, which reminds me of tweed.

so far, no one has missed it, all I need to say is "what do you think"........

I can't see clear swastikas even having been told.

There's your counterexample.

 

I can see it either way, by choice, same as with many "reversible" optical illusions. But the embedded "swastika" isn't what I see first, even now that I know that it's there.

 

...if I didnt say 'Swastikas' how would you know what I meant?

Exactly! If you had said "a disturbing symbol", I suspect that there are a number of folks who wouldn't have discovered the "swastika".

 

And what you see in the design on the bellows papers may be "swastikas", but they aren't "Swastikas", with a capital "S". (The name "swastika" predates the Nazis, by the way.) The Nazi party symbol is very specific: It is a right-facing swastika; it is oriented so that all its straight lines are at a 45° angle to the horizontal and vertical; the thickness of the arms is the same as the thickness of the spaces between them; and as a political symbol I believe it always stands prominently alone, not in arrays or as a submotif (though I don't doubt that some Nazi sympathizers find attractive any design which even vaguely resembles "their" Swastika).

 

Hmmm, I've tried to ignore them but they wont go away!

Your personal oversensitivity, I fear. I hope you can overcome it. There are many millions of people in the world today for whom the swastika -- absent its very specific Nazi context and details -- is a very positive symbol.

[Stephen Chambers]

... so far, no one has missed it ...

Roy,

 

Errrm, isn't that what several of us (including myself) have indicated in reply to your post? At least, it's what I meant to convey...

 

All I can see is a geometric Art Deco design, I can't see any swastikas! (No matter how hard I try. )

 

I suppose you can see them in other innocent geometric designs, like the quilt pattern below, if you look hard enough ...

 

 

On the other hand, those are very clearly swastikas on the Black Dots, though possibly not Nazi ones?

 

I don't know who chose the emblems on those accordions, or what they were intended to convey, but the earliest Black Dots clearly had flames springing from either side of the Double-Ray logo, and the swastika is a universal symbol of the sun, whilst the emblem above each swastika, of a circle with lines radiating from it, appears to be a sun-ray symbol, which is also ancient. (And it was hated just as much as the swastika during WW2, when used for the Japanese "rising sun" naval flag!)

 

However, the production of the Black Dot was originally at the behest of the Scottish dealer Charlie Forbes, of Dundee, and swastikas are also an ancient Pictish device, though by 1934 they were evidently already becoming unacceptable in Britain, as I've come across a reference to requests in the Boy Scout movement to have the "good luck" swastika removed from their Medal of Merit (and it was, in 1935).

 

I have seen this design two or three times now, the last being about three months ago, always on Lachenal Anglos, and always late models.

Dave,

 

I've come across a couple of late Englishes with those Deco papers, Erinoid buttons, square fibre cases and MADE IN ENGLAND stamps too.

[accordionmagic]

Hello and in summary then;

 

Has anyone come across this pattern before? I am restoring this 31 key Anglo Lach Number 200234

 

Yes, some people have seen it before on both late Anglo AND English Lachenal models.

These come with fibre boxes and Erinoid buttons and the words MADE IN ENGLAND or in the case above, just the word ENGLAND stamped on the side of a wooden end.

 

So it's 1930 something at the end of production but are those Swastikas or 'patternations'........... or what.

 

It's actually just a repeating 'Art Deco' type of pattern that some people see as overlapping lines such as those seen in basket weaving and Tweed fabrics and some people see as symbols resembling the 'swastika' symbol of the 'bad' WWII period and the 'nice' period before. Some people can only see one of the patterns (there may be dozens), others can see more than one at the same time and some people can choose which one to see ..... some people refuse to see

 

I dont suppose Lachenal would have got away with this after 1939 or even earlier? any ideas?

 

Well, I dont mean that he would have tried on purpose! but I think, given that at least some people can see the symbols that he would have changed the design at the time, had he still been in business.

 

Anyway, should I replace these five fold bellows for a new set, would it put off potential buyers if they were left on after some repair?

 

So long as I show the potential customer the paper design without uttering the words 'swastika' or 'symbol' or 'Art Deco' then they might actually like the design and buy the instrument so I will leave them on and fix em up like new.

 

Before anyone asks, they are definately original.

 

They are!

 

Cheers and thanks to EVERYONE for this interesting thread.

 

Roy