Thummer?

[Richard Morse]

Yes, I've been talking with the guy for a couple of weeks now. Interesting that his "Hayden" layout is not horizontal but is slanted like the right hand of a Hayden concertina is.... I'm not sure I like the slant in a prone version as that means that it's a completely symmetrical instrument in that both hands have access to exactly the same notes rather than being an octave apart. It also means that both hands are twisted in different (relatively) directions.

 

Also because the tines are all the same cross section, they need to get appreciably longer for the lower notes which means that the distance between notes becomes progressive closer the higher the notes get. Probably not a big deal, but I really like the uniformity of having the actuators (buttons, keys, tines) all the same distance apart. I suggested to him that he weight the ends of the tines to made them uniformly distant and to increase the stiffness of the lower noted ones (apparently the low notes are undesirably soft) to get improved performance.

 

I had been toying around (only in the thinking/sketching stages) with a prone Hayden lamellaphone for a few years though my tine arrangement was such the the octaves of notes were secured on top of each other which had the added benefit of closer fingering and smaller instrument. One of the reasons why those Array people have such large spacing is due to each tine being secured separately... and probably was the reason why the "keyboard" arrangement slants?

 

-- Rich --

[inventor]

A few brief comments.

1) I find the diagrams quite hard to understand as none of them seem to have the specific octave that the keys shown refer to. A "C" might be a middle c (c') a tenor c © or a bass c © or any other from CC to C""' . This may be further complicated by talking about the "Janko Keyboard" (both have whole-tone intervals along the rows) where a C on the next but one row above plays the same note, whereas on the "Hayden Keyboard" the C on the next but one row above plays a c an octave above.

2) There is no point in going beyond two handfulls together with all 7 flats to the extreme left and all 7 sharps to the extreme right. If you have to jump a hand to the left or right whilst playing this reduces the ease of playing and uncertainty of hitting the right notes that you have on the piano. Just 2 rows of notes definitely doesn't work. I once very early on made the expensive mistake of having a 3 row accordion made with part "Hayden System" but having to move a good distance in the middle of a tune totally destroyed all the advantages of the keyboard.

3) Instructions for playing: I will be doing a set of lessons for Hayden concertina at the WCCP Kilve weekend next month, I am down for 3 sessions, but this can easily be expanded to up to 8 sessions if anyone wants it - see West Country Concertina Players website for details and bookings. I also have a number of instruction sheets for various aspects of playing the system - from 3 chord tricks on the LHS to how to play Harmonic minors easily but these are all on Microsoft "Word" documents with diagrams in specific places, and I have no idea how to put a Microsoft Word document on to this website retaining in exactly the same format.

More later,

Inventor.

[David Barnert]

I also have a number of instruction sheets for various aspects of playing the system - from 3 chord tricks on the LHS to how to play Harmonic minors easily but these are all on Microsoft "Word" documents with diagrams in specific places, and I have no idea how to put a Microsoft Word document on to this website retaining in exactly the same format.

Brian-

 

I, for one, would like to see your instruction sheets. Can you e-mail them to me at the address below? I can also convert them into pdf documents, which retain their formatting on various computer platforms. Then you can post them here or at Bob Gaskins' Concertina Library site http://www.concertina.com with a link to that site posted here.

[Richard Morse]

1) I find the diagrams quite hard to understand as none of them seem to have the specific octave that the keys shown refer to.

Yes I found that difficult too. The maker says that that is because we can choose the octaves. Apparently he has tines for 5 complete octaves (C2 - B6), so if you want a 4-octave instrument (which happened to be the example he had on the web) you could choose to have the 4 lower or 4 higher of the 5 octaves.

 

-- Rich --

[Hooves]

In fact, I don't see any fundamental difference between using different layouts/tunings and playing different instruments. So by your argument, anyone who plays more than one type of instrument is only "playing toys".

 

Oh Oh - I agree with Jim, what is the world coming too...

 

When I switched to usign alternate tunings on my guitar, my playing has expanded expotentially - I'm playign stuff now I never thought I could, all because I now almost exclusively play in alternate tunings.

 

However I think whats really at issue is that elusive beast "the best system", which like many a bedraggled questing Knight has discovered, will never be skewered and mounted on a trophy wall.

 

Now what I want to see is a keyboard with infinite button possibilities, I have seen some devices where its just patches and areas you use your fingers on, and you can define what each area does - thats the ticket! Then, you can change your "button" arrangement however you want, even between songs, or maybe even during songs!

 

But perhaps thats a bit extreme - too much automation relegates the performer to a mixer rather than a player.

 

----------

 

I edited some of the content as I realized I was way off subject,

 

sorry about that!

Edited February 7, 2008 by Hooves

[JimLucas]

Then, you can change your "button" arrangement however you want, even between songs, or maybe even during songs!

Sort of like what one does with the pedals on a

concert harp

?

[m3838]

In fact, I don't see any fundamental difference between using different layouts/tunings and playing different instruments. So by your argument, anyone who plays more than one type of instrument is only "playing toys".

Oh Oh - I agree with Jim, what is the world coming too..

 

How many days are you planning to spend to master your one given concertina layout before jumping to another?

Or is it years we're talking about? What was our life expectancy lately?

All keyboard systems are very interesting, most are not connected to any acoustic sound generator, so they are not really instruments. So what's the point? Are you going to mock sax players with Thummer or piano players with Hayden Duet Midi? May be "yes", depends on the goal. When you try different tunings of a guitar, it's guitar that matters, not how strings are attached. The latter is up to a player.

If that guy, who demonstrated hand activated effects, couldn't play his guitar, what good would have his invention do? And electic guitar, unlike synth, is an acoustic instrument, it's just amplyfied.

There is this tiny difference between a musician and a guy, who can play three basic chords on 10 different keyboards.

Jim, who advocated going wide, may inadvertenly advocate going thin. He is mainly an English player, who plays 'with' Anglo and at least two type of duets. It's been many years now, but he's still mainly an English player.

After all, it depends what is more fun, to try all the systems possible or express oneself musically. Neither one is any worse then the other, btw.

Most people just watch TV.

[ragtimer]

Yes, I've been talking with the guy for a couple of weeks now. Interesting that his "Hayden" layout is not horizontal but is slanted like the right hand of a Hayden concertina is.... I'm not sure I like the slant in a prone version as that means that it's a completely symmetrical instrument in that both hands have access to exactly the same notes rather than being an octave apart. It also means that both hands are twisted in different (relatively) directions.

Yes, the LH is slanted backwards from how we HDC players are accustomed. However, that reverse slant may actually be more ergonomic, wiht the LH pinky not having to reach as far.

Also because the tines are all the same cross section, they need to get appreciably longer for the lower notes which means that the distance between notes becomes progressive closer the higher the notes get. Probably not a big deal, but I really like the uniformity of having the actuators (buttons, keys, tines) all the same distance apart.

I have to agree with you again, Rich. Unifromity is a big help. OTOH, those higher notes wouldn't be as hard to stretch and reach. Someone who didnt' already play HDC would probably ind it natural -- liek the fret spacing on a string neck getting closer, going up the scale.

I suggested to him that he weight the ends of the tines to made them uniformly distant and to increase the stiffness of the lower noted ones (apparently the low notes are undesirably soft) to get improved performance.

Apparently his different models (type of wood used, etc.) have different balances of loudness and sustain acrosss the range. I would think long sustain in the deep bass would be good, but it could get terribly mudddy -- unles you use a fingertip to damp a note when you want it to end. The technique is different from an array of buttons, after all.

One of the reasons why those Array people have such large spacing is due to each tine being secured separately... and probably was the reason why the "keyboard" arrangement slants?

-- Rich --

They could easily take the slant out of the keyboar (if so desired?) by slping the big metal hold-down bar downwards.

 

If this isntrument caught on and got played a lot, over the eyars we would see some human engineering in its layout. Just as I have been sort of advocating for the HDC button slope.

--Mike K.

[ragtimer]

2) There is no point in going beyond two handfulls together with all 7 flats to the extreme left and all 7 sharps to the extreme right. If you have to jump a hand to the left or right whilst playing this reduces the ease of playing and uncertainty of hitting the right notes that you have on the piano. Just 2 rows of notes definitely doesn't work. I once very early on made the expensive mistake of having a 3 row accordion made with part "Hayden System" but having to move a good distance in the middle of a tune totally destroyed all the advantages of the keyboard.

Yes! I tried to say the same hting in an earlier posting -- that playing an extended rising scale passage, you want ot move up (away from you), not sideeways to the right, because there is that awkward jump over several buttons. So not much point in makign a Hayden prone keyboard more than two octaves wide.

 

Make it deep, and let playeres try putting one hand above (farther away from self) the other.

3) Instructions for playing: I also have a number of instruction sheets for various aspects of playing the system - from 3 chord tricks on the LHS to how to play Harmonic minors easily but these are all on Microsoft "Word" documents with diagrams in specific places, and I have no idea how to put a Microsoft Word document on to this website retaining in exactly the same format.

More later,

Inventor.

As someone else said, PDF is the best format for combined text and graphics. Rather bulky, but universal. Your version of Word may even have a "Print to PDF file" option.

--Mike K.

[Hooves]

Then, you can change your "button" arrangement however you want, even between songs, or maybe even during songs!

Sort of like what one does with the pedals on a

concert harp

?

 

 

Or even the levers on a lever harp (I wrote Celtic harp before, but it looks liek thier really isa 'lever harp', having leevrs across the top to change tuning)

 

But, I have gone off subject yet again, I deleted my earlier info as I realized I was hijacking the thread.

 

Sorry about that!

Edited February 7, 2008 by Hooves

[inventor]

4) I was very pleased to see the details of Bill Wesley's Mbira. I had seen the Wesley Patent for a keyboard a couple of years ago (Jim Plaedemon pointed it out to me); and note that the "Wesley Array" is defined differently from the "Hayden arrangement of musical touchpoints". "Hayden" is effectively defined as a 2-5-7 semitone arrangement but "Wesley" is as a 5-7-12 semitone arrangement; like a squashed "Hayden" with the octaves nearer than the whole-tones along the line. This would make a difference to how the keyboards would come out on an electronic keyboard with the touches as large hexagons close together, but for a Hayden Concertina player playing a Wesley Mbira both would appear to be the same thing.

The Hayden Patent does list a Sansa (the generic name for an Mbira) amongst the possible uses of the arrangement for non keyboard instruments, and I did make a "Hayden System" Hammer Dulcimer which worked very well, but never persued this or any of the other non-keyboard possibilities.

The Sansa was on the bottom of the list long after Psalteries, Harps, Crwths, Xylophones, and Pan-pipes; so I am very pleased to see that such an instrument is in production.

Inventor.

[m3838]

How do you make a Hayden Panpipe?

[inventor]

Pan-pipes - two possible solutions, both need open pipes that overblow the octave.

1) Put a run of pipes tuned to a whole tone scale, and place another run of pipes behind them tuned to the other whole tone scale. Play 3 along the bottom then move to 4 intermeshing above them, then return to the the lower ones and overblow them to play the octave above for another 3 notes, and return to the top ones again to overblow these notes.

Andean Pan-pipes are made in a similar form with 2 runs of pipes but each tuned to alternate notes (rather english-concertina like !).

2) Use a single row of pipes but each with a single hole in it which when open plays a note a fourth (or possibly a fifth above). Play 3 notes with the fingerholes closed, then 4 with the fingerholes open then overblow with the fingerholes closed, and overblow with the fingerholes open.

I once a long time ago tryed out this with 4 Pennywhistles (in Bb, C, D, & E) Sellotaped together, and most of the holes Sellotaped down. It worked rather well, and I could even play a couple of Major and a couple of minor chords on it.

Inventor.

(American readers: for Sellotaped - read Scotchtapped.)

[m3838]

Pan-pipes - two possible solutions, both need open pipes that overblow the octave.

Do panpipes overblow. aren't they played dynamically, piano-forte?

One can't cover 7 fingerholes on panpipes, unless you mean whistles with a fipple, not panpipes.

Edited February 20, 2008 by m3838