Identity

[JimLucas]

I agree with Allen's original sentiment. I said as much a few years back when concertins.net changed its format. I, personally, would feel more comfortable communicating with people with real names, but I am a little more used to it than when this first started. I'm not sure what reason there is for this "custom", but I have always tried to be straight with people I speak with and look them straight in the eye when I do. ... I know forums like this have their own culture, but it runs counter to what I was brought up with.

I think "culture" is an important word here. I've been told time and again that if I ever want to do business in Japan, I must never look anyone in the eye. It would be considered a challenge and an insult, and the offended person would never conclude a deal with the "looker" or ever try to do business with them again. In America, on the other hand, if you don't "look them straight in the eye", they are likely to assume that you're either insecure or dishonest, neither of which is considered a good trait in a business partner.

 

But it's not just from country to country. I've lived in various parts of the US and now in Denmark, and I've seen that the customs and requirements for social interaction can vary considerably... from city to city, according to economic class or ethnic background, and even among members of the same family. In the end, the feeling is personal, though certainly influenced by your environment -- family, peers, friends, enemies, media and celebrities -- as you grow up.

 

Here's an example: On one occasion some long-time friends -- including couples J+P and R+M, who had grown up in the same city, but with different ethnic backgrounds -- were gathered at an event. At one point J did a favor for M which M considered most generous and M showed his appreciation by saying "thank you", emphasized by a peck on the cheek. He did it without thinking, as to him it was a high complement. R, M's wife, beamed, proud of her husband for such a generous demonstration of his appreciation. J's husband P, ordinarily meek and quiet, flew into a fury! His reaction made it clear that he considered that dainty kiss to be little different from attempted rape. J herself didn't react quite as violently, but it was clear that she was taken aback by M's brazenness. And I repeat that these were people who had been friends and together frequently over the course of many years.

 

I guess it shows my age!

FOLKS: now Frank raises a very interesting point. . . . . indeed, perhaps he has just clobbered the nail on its head. . . . .do those who support my original motion (now withdrawn, remember) and those who oppose it fall into different age groups. . . . .with the yeas generally being older and the nays generally being younger (and brought up in an internet world, in which i certainly was not). . . . . .

 

...i rather suspect that both Frank and i can live without the answer. . . . . .indeed, i've already judged it to be right!

And I (as you might guess) believe it to be wrong. I know people of all generations who fall into both categories, i.e., 1) feeling a need to have persons identified by name, and 2) not feeling such a need. I also find that the first group often feel a need to have names used in personal conversation. I.e., saying "hi" or "so long" is considered inadequate or even offensive, but "hi, Jim" or "so long, Allan" is "proper". I believe my parents, both now gone, would have been a generation before you, Allan, but neither was much concerned with people's names. To them (and now to me), a person's name was something you learned eventually if you spent enough time with them, and there was no requirement for how long that would take. To them (and to me) a person was defined by what they did, not by their "name".

 

I think there's a lesson to be learned here -- beyond simple tolerance, -- but I don't think it's that there's a generation gap, or even an "internet gap". It's that the values we grew up with -- even the ones we consider "fundamental" -- are not the same for everyone. It is true, though, that the internet has resulted in the mixing of people with different backgrounds and beliefs to a far greater extent than was conceivable only a few decades ago. I think that is forcing those of us who participate to confront these differences and make decisions (which could be based on emotion as well as "reason") of priority in our behavior, maybe even to the extent of accepting "in our hearts" behavior which we have long considered "inappropriate".

Now where did we put that

Can o' Worms

picture?

Allan/Anon. MDCCCXIX

Allan, I recommend caution in your choice of pseudonyms. You seem to be developing a sequence, the next step of which could be "Al Anon". And that requires 12 steps more.

[allan atlas]

JIM: you're quite right that the fine points of cultural/social interaction are extremely complicated. . . . .and that what might work in "x", will not work in "y". . . . . .though i must say that a greeting of either "Hi" or "Hi Anon. IV" is fine with me. . . . . .moreover, we usually know just to whom we're saying just "Hi". . . . .

 

in the end, i can only say that i personally prefer to communicate with real names (and yes, i recognize that the very definition of "real names" is somewhat clouded) than i do with pseudonyms (which, by the way, might well say more about a person -- musical likes and dislikes, included -- than the nondescript, we're stuck-with-'em likes of "Jim" or "Bob" or even "Anon. IV"). . . . . . . . .

 

in the end, my proposal was soundly defeated. . . . i fully accept that. . . . .and i will live -- and happily at that -- with the consequences. . . . . . .

 

i do, however, think that Frank is on to something. . . . . . .

 

Johannes de Garlandia (my new 13th-century theorist hero)..........

Edited December 21, 2007 by allan atlas

[Stephen Chambers]

Johannes de Garlandia (my new 13th-century theorist hero)..........

 

Ummm, hasn't there been a lot of confusion about his identity?

[JimLucas]

Johannes de Garlandia (my new 13th-century theorist hero)..........

What? You have no heroes from the

old

13th century?

Johannes de Garlandia (my new 13th-century theorist hero)..........

Ummm, hasn't there been a lot of confusion about his identity?

Wikipedia entries say there were two of him, not quite contemporaries. The later one is listed as a music theorist, while the earlier one was a philologist. Should we guess which one is Allan's hero? (Should we even believe Wikipedia? )

Edited December 22, 2007 by JimLucas

[pugwash]

I can't keep up with this thread, because my head has exploded.

 

Richard.

[allan atlas]

Johannes de Garlandia (my new 13th-century theorist hero)..........

 

Ummm, hasn't there been a lot of confusion about his identity?

 

 

STEPHEN: that's why i chose him. . . .it's a good "cover". . . . . . .

 

so from now on: Guillaume de Machaut.............

[allan atlas]

Johannes de Garlandia (my new 13th-century theorist hero)..........

What? You have no heroes from the

old

13th century?

Johannes de Garlandia (my new 13th-century theorist hero)..........

Ummm, hasn't there been a lot of confusion about his identity?

Wikipedia entries say there were two of him, not quite contemporaries. The later one is listed as a music theorist, while the earlier one was a philologist. Should we guess which one is Allan's hero? (Should we even believe Wikipedia? )

 

 

FOLKS: Jim is quite right. . . .seems there are two guys with that name. . . . .there's an Englishman, a grammarian and philologist, who flourished c. 1190 - 1272. . . . then there's the french music theorist, whose career most likely did not begin until after c. 1270. . . . . .so if that's more or less what wikipedia says, they've got it right. . . . . .

 

Guillaume

Edited December 22, 2007 by allan atlas

[allan atlas]

I can't keep up with this thread, because my head has exploded.

 

Richard.

 

 

RICHARD: little surprise. . . . .and all i was looking for was a stream of yeahs and nopes. . . . .I'M RETIRING. . . . . .back at the computer late on tuesday....................

 

 

 

Sir Arnold Bax...........

Edited December 22, 2007 by allan atlas

[Marien]

A friend of mine, a poet, released his book of poetry, where each page is numbered 38.

 

Hello M

 

How many pages does the book have? Let me have a guess, is the M in M3838 Misterious?

[Marien]

And, as well, I have to use the computer when it's owner (my daughter) is not using it.

 

I have my own computer, but like you I have to wait until my daughter is not using my computer.

[hjcjones]

I am undecided on this point.

 

When the internet world was a lot smaller, a culture of using nicknames rather than real names grew up. By the time I got involved, this was still widespread, but starting to break down. I registered on cnet using my real name, because (a) using a nickname seemed to me to be slightly silly and a bit juvenile, and ( I couldn't be bothered trying to think of one. Also, like Alan, I prefer to deal with real names, particularly as (perhaps unlike other internet forums) many of us know one another in the real world. But I have no problem corresponding with nicknames, and many on here append their real names anyway.

 

Since I registered, we have all become rather more aware of the risk of identity theft, and now I rather wish I had registered more anonymously. There doesn't seem to be a way of changing my registered name, and to go to the bother of re-registering under a new name seems a bit of a waste of effort, when my details are now scattered all over the internet.

[Stephen Chambers]

... is the M in M3838 Misterious?

More likely Misha (Миша)?

[Marien]

My real name is Fiddlerjoebob...

 

I am not going to tell you my nick name, it's private.

[Fiddlehead Fern]

I prefer to keep my entire name to myself, as well as my location. Since I'm a minor, it is my parent's wish, as well as mine that when I join a forum or online community I stay anonymous.

 

I used "Fiddlehead Fern" because it is one of my numerous nicknames.

[allan atlas]

FIDDLEHEAD FERN: and a nice nickname it is to boot....................allan

[yankeeclipper]

In the real, off-line world, we get to shape our own identities by the clothes we wear, the accents we affect, the cars we drive, etc. On-line, the only personal choice we have is the name we use.

 

Our off-line names are often determined by ancient usages or long-abandoned family trades that have nothing to do with who we are today. How many people named Butcher, Baker, Fletcher, Farmer, Carter, Smith, etc., still engage in the trades of their ancestor namesakes?

 

My own name in Irish is derived from 'servant of the Church,' which I most certainly am not. My name in this forum reflects my nationality - American - and my years of clipping Highland sheep with blade shears. So the names we choose for an internet 'handle' may actually be a more honest reflection of who we are than the names in our passports.

Edited December 31, 2007 by yankeeclipper

[Chris Timson]

Here's what I said on the subject when it came up before in 2003. I don't think I can say it any better now:-

 

Oddly enough, I use the handle ConcertinaChap on all the other fora I use (which don't have any concertina content) but here I use my real name. When I set up my login the idea of doing otherwise never occurred to me. I'm thinking very carefully why this might be.

 

I think it's a family thing. This forum is not big, as these things go - compare Mudcat. In the larger arenas I am just one voice among many, and my name is not significant, so I choose a handle that says something about what I am. Here, I have at one time or another met a significant proportion of the other listees in the flesh, and have corresponded directly with many more. I have created a site that, on the topic, is only second to this one in the traffic it gets. I think it's that I'm proud to be me in this forum, and don't want to disguise the fact. I don't know, is that egotistical? Well, warts and all, there it is.

 

Chris

Edited December 31, 2007 by Chris Timson

[Richard Morse]

Very interesting Chris and yankeeclipper.... My general handle is "Ecotectoo" yet I chose to be known as myself here on concertina.net. This place *is* like family, and we are known for *ourselves* rather than so many other places which we are primarily know for what we *do* (or our interests, or to reflect phobias, or to hide, etc.).

 

People on my other forums know what I do by my handle, and what I do is key in my participation on those forums. Here I'm me as there's a lot more to me than a job (interest, etc.). I must say that when communicating on such a personal level (as we do here), I find it very disconcerting/disconnecting when I don't know "who" I'm talking with.

 

Sure, over time I'll come to "know" yankeeclipper by that name yet I also know hundresd of "yankees" and about a dozen of whom have fairly good-sized wooden boats/ships or crew on one (including "tall ships"). But there are so fewer real name handles which makes pegging much easier for me. I took me several years to realize who Animaterra is (just for instance, one amongst many others - most whom I still don't "know" who you are).

 

-- Rich --