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[m3838]

That Bouree in Cmin by Bach. How is it supposed to be accentuated?

I looked up Bouree on Youtube to see, what the real dance is and

so: here's the Gypsi "Bouree"

Now it's Russian Wedding "Bouree"

now it's Jewish wedding "Bouree"

Czech Mazurka "Bouree"

 

Help me please. Why Bach called his piece "Bouree"? Is it really a Bouree or who cares?

And what is a Bouree? How can it be translated into English?

May be it's like Jewish Hora, that simply means dance in a circle?

Edited July 16, 2008 by m3838

[keithfre]

That Bouree in Cmin by Bach. How is it supposed to be accentuated?

If you want the "authentic" Bach style, beg, borrow, steal or download a recording by Gustav Leonhardt (harpsichord).

[michelv]

There's the traditional Bourrée dance from France, played on hurdy-gurdy and bagpipe. Comes in two flavours: 2 beats and 3 beats. The rhythm is very accentuated: in 3 beats heavy on 3 and 1; in 2 beats heavy on 2.5 and 1.

 

The Czech Mazurka Bourrée on YouTube: they play a real French Bourrée, but the dance is completely different from the way it's traditionally danced in France. They probably invented something just to have fun.

 

The Bach Bourree: these classical guys just gave folky names to their compositions, often to indicate they were influenced by the traditional music. And at the end, their classical versions became standard names within classical music. I had the occasion of playing a (classical) polka with a "real" classical string orchestra once, and I was thrown out because I played it as a real polka. The entire orchestra was speechless. "No, no, no, double bass is never played like that!"

 

It's a bit like Tango: there's the real thing from Argentina, and then there's the European music inspired on that, which people also call tango. European tango has a completely different rhythm: it's based on the military march. Don't ask me why: it's a long story.

[m3838]

European tango has a completely different rhythm: it's based on the military march. Don't ask me why: it's a long story.

 

Why?

[PeterT]

European tango has a completely different rhythm: it's based on the military march. Don't ask me why: it's a long story.

 

Why?

The smart question would have been "Why not?".

[michelv]

European tango has a completely different rhythm: it's based on the military march. Don't ask me why: it's a long story.

 

Why?

I can't find any proof of it on the internet, but I think it has to do with the very first recording of tango in Europe. A composer named A.Villoldo was invited to Paris and there he recorded the very first tango ever recorded in Europe: El Choclo, which he composed in 1905, with a brass band. I think it was even a military band.

 

"1913 was the Year of the Tango all over the world. Tango was the couple dance everyone wanted to learn. In this year the Tango Teas began at the Waldorf Hotel in London, picking up the fashion of Tes Dansants from Paris, and a grand Tango ball held in the Selfridges department store was declared the event of the season. All of Europe was dancing the Tango. There were many disapproving voices, but the mania had bitten. Fashions in clothing, already changing away from the restrictions of the Victorian corset and hooped skirts, changed more quickly under the influence of the Tango. It is said that women in Paris abandoned the corset in order to dance it. The feathers in women's hats moved from horizontal, sweeping across in front of the face, to vertical, going up from the forehead, letting a couple dance without the feather getting in the Tango partner's way. Tulip skirts, which opened at the front, made dancing easier. Women were sold not just Tango shoes, but Tango stockings, Tango hats, Tango dresses, and anything else that manufacturers could think of. And the colour of Tango was orange. " source

 

I guess the European musicians, not being familiar with how it sounded in Buenos-Aires where the Tango originated, played the tangos in a rhythm they did know, and the closest was the military march. Maybe they remembered the recording of Villoldo with the brass band. To be complete, there's also a distinct third offspring: Finnish tango.

 

Later on, both English and American tango dancing split off and became dance forms on their own. And they continued the military march type rhythm. To be honest, since I play the old style Argentine tango, the European form sounds horrible to me.

 

 

Another influence was the Dutch composer and accordion player Arie Maasland. He noticed that his audience liked tango, and he began to make this own compositions based on the Argentine tango. He developed his own style and changed his name to "Malando". Under that name he became very popular. Many (ok, maybe many older) people know and recognise his composition Ole Guapa. In fact, the music of Malando was my first contact with tango, and until I met Alfredo Marcucci I didn't know that Argentine tango even existed.

[m3838]

 

Thanks alot for the post and the examples.

Now, I would not tend to take the european example for granted.

Personally I think it's not well played, with awfully wrong rhythm and completely lacking the style. I think Tango style has slight feeling of delay and been off rhythm.

I ran into this peculiar problem many times: Been raised in Russia (more or less), I got used to the Russian style of Tango, where sexual expliciteness is replaced with broken heart sentiment. The closest example among american music is "The Boulevard of Broken Dreams" and generally the music from the Great Depression. Russian style of dancing is not flashy, more solemn, and with lots of freezes and stern looking in the eyes. When I hear Europeans perform Russian music, it seems to me they are slaves of the marching rhythm and staying focused, while Russian style includes lots of off-rhythm pauses, modulations, and powerful intros.

Something like:

Trrram, pa-pammmm........Tarr-ram-pam, Param-papammmm................................

Tarrrr-ra-ra-ra-ra-rrrrrrrrrram-pamm...............................................................

Etc. Think Tshaykovsky vs. Bach.

All the wile the partners must express necessity to part, and inability to do so.

French style is the closest to Russian among europeans, but lately I have discovered that Brazilians and Argentinians are very close to Russians in character, so all made sense to me. Even political and social systems are close. A friend of mine, a Brazilian, told me about his youth, spent in Fascist youth organization in Brazil, just like Comsomol in USSR (Communist Youth Union).

Now it's time for examples:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uL2VLSIgMOM

Same piece played in Argentinian style

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5mIBH9kVpk

Very popular, with a tear and heart shuttered like you've never seen before.

Emigrant singer, Alexandr Vertinsky

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EeM5TDXR3hU

Soviet Era legend, Leonid Utjosov

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0s6cPr2Tb0o

and last one, not sure if it's enough Tanogoesque, but there is some feel.

Patriotic song, in a movie about WWII, tragic. By yet another legend, Mark Bernes.

"Night is dark, only bullets are whistling around"

 

I don't see any resemblance of military march in the examples, and Russians picked up Tango after French. Perhaps your involvement in Tango may have been influenced by certain crowd of performers, whose style you have taken for original?

[michelv]

Thanks alot for the post and the examples.

Now, I would not tend to take the european example for granted.

Personally I think it's not well played, with awfully wrong rhythm and completely lacking the style. I think Tango style has slight feeling of delay and been off rhythm.

I ran into this peculiar problem many times: Been raised in Russia (more or less), I got used to the Russian style of Tango, where sexual expliciteness is replaced with broken heart sentiment. The closest example among american music is "The Boulevard of Broken Dreams" and generally the music from the Great Depression. Russian style of dancing is not flashy, more solemn, and with lots of freezes and stern looking in the eyes. When I hear Europeans perform Russian music, it seems to me they are slaves of the marching rhythm and staying focused, while Russian style includes lots of off-rhythm pauses, modulations, and powerful intros.

 

I don't see any resemblance of military march in the examples, and Russians picked up Tango after French. Perhaps your involvement in Tango may have been influenced by certain crowd of performers, whose style you have taken for original?

 

Wow. The examples you gave are really beautiful. I must admit I dont't know much about Russian and Finnish tango, but it is great to hear how they capture the tango feeling and give it their own soul. And you are absolutely right: it is much richer and closer to the Argentine tango than most European stuff.

 

I am Flemish, born and raised in Belgium. Tango is a universal language. I am only influenced by one person: Alfredo Marcucci. I play for more than 15 years with him now. He is 80 years old, played bandoneon since he was 8, professional at 12. Only thanks to this living legend I had the chance to learn to play the traditional old style of tango playing. We call it the "heavy metal" tango: very much dance orientated, not the romantic style modern musicians like so much nowadays. When he was around 20, Alfredo played in all the great tango orchestras in Buenos Aires of that time: D'Arienzo, Di Sarli, etc.. His uncle, Carlos Marcucci was regarded as the best bandoneon teacher ever. This old style tango is the hardest I've ever played in my life. And after 20 years, I'm still learning.

 

The second example you gave is in fact played as "Milonga Campera": a slow milonga style, not intended for dancing. Consider it the "ballad" kind of tango. Astor Piazzolla used this rhythm very much. I'll try to arrange some for concertina in the near future.

[m3838]

You made mistake of expressing your enjoyment.

So here's some more, much more. Don't you feel sorry already?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_W12CvjEz50...feature=related

 

Here's where this Tango style comes from. if you have stamina to listen through these endless pauses and artistic disregard for the rhythm.

Don't pay attention to the pictures, their kitchines suits the singer perfectly. He was an example of low key,. but he has stupendous feel for the expression, rhythm and generally excellent school.

Russian "Romantic" song, 19 century. Very typical performance.

Tah--ah--y-k yoh----ur T-ah-ah-y-mmm (and you supposed to cry all the time, drink vodka and think about injustices of the World, and how your youth is over and what's left is just a wreck. Written and sung by very young people, usually)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrZ8YypeGTw...feature=related

Good rendition from modern singer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KV0skdv6EZI...feature=related

Stupendous clip:

I think Russian Romantic Songs is Imerial Equivalent of Amerian Blues.

I'll try to learn some. Sounds like muffled round tone of my Tenor F may suit well to such style (or not).

Edited July 18, 2008 by m3838

[m3838]

edited to remove contents

Edited August 12, 2008 by m3838

[Alan Day]

That Bouree in Cmin by Bach. How is it supposed to be accentuated?

I looked up Bouree on Youtube to see, what the real dance is and

so: here's the Gypsi "Bouree"

Now it's Russian Wedding "Bouree"

now it's Jewish wedding "Bouree"

Czech Mazurka "Bouree"

 

Help me please. Why Bach called his piece "Bouree"? Is it really a Bouree or who cares?

And what is a Bouree? How can it be translated into English?

May be it's like Jewish Hora, that simply means dance in a circle?

Misha I have found these dances interesting as they are typically Central Traditional French Dances.

The Russian Bouree is a almost identical to the Bouree dance from the Auvergne Region The A sideways dance ,the B in France the Dancers dance in a circular movement whilst spinning.The timing and the style of the music is identical. Fast -one two three- one two three

All of the others are from the Bourbonais region of France and are named as Two time and three time Bourees.The only difference between watching these dancers is the style of dancing,the dance is the same as danced in France.

Al

[m3838]

That Bouree in Cmin by Bach. How is it supposed to be accentuated?

I looked up Bouree on Youtube to see, what the real dance is and

so: here's the Gypsi "Bouree"

Now it's Russian Wedding "Bouree"

now it's Jewish wedding "Bouree"

Czech Mazurka "Bouree"

 

Help me please. Why Bach called his piece "Bouree"? Is it really a Bouree or who cares?

And what is a Bouree? How can it be translated into English?

May be it's like Jewish Hora, that simply means dance in a circle?

Misha I have found these dances interesting as they are typically Central Traditional French Dances.

The Russian Bouree is a almost identical to the Bouree dance from the Auvergne Region The A sideways dance ,the B in France the Dancers dance in a circular movement whilst spinning.The timing and the style of the music is identical. Fast -one two three- one two three

All of the others are from the Bourbonais region of France and are named as Two time and three time Bourees.The only difference between watching these dancers is the style of dancing,the dance is the same as danced in France.

Al

 

Sorry for some misleading, but those bourrees are probably danced by Frenchmen.

My classification was just to express me been lost at various Bourrees, different in feel and structure, yet called Bourrees. The whole reason for it was a suggestion by some poster, that I need to see what Bourree is and how it's danced to be able to play Bach Bouree in Gmin better.

Now, after I watched all those, I still am at place "0" as to what genuine Bourree is and why Bach called his piece "Bourree". Perhaps it just means "Dance With a Lady, Dressed in Traditional Outfit".

Since then my playing has become much worse, and chances are it will not be any better for some time.

I took off all the Youtube recordings untill better times.

[keithfre]

Now, after I watched all those, I still am at place "0" as to what genuine Bourree is and why Bach called his piece "Bourree". Perhaps it just means "Dance With a Lady, Dressed in Traditional Outfit".

In the case of Renaissance dances it can make a big difference to know how they were danced, but Bach's baroque dances are musical forms intended only for listening. You might get a clue from seeing French baroque opera or ballet performed authentically. Or just listen to performances of the music on 'original instruments', as most of those guys (or their teachers) have studied the dance forms.

[m3838]

Now, after I watched all those, I still am at place "0" as to what genuine Bourree is and why Bach called his piece "Bourree". Perhaps it just means "Dance With a Lady, Dressed in Traditional Outfit".

In the case of Renaissance dances it can make a big difference to know how they were danced, but Bach's baroque dances are musical forms intended only for listening. You might get a clue from seeing French baroque opera or ballet performed authentically. Or just listen to performances of the music on 'original instruments', as most of those guys (or their teachers) have studied the dance forms.

 

Thanks for the advice.

[m3838]

Here's my attempt to play Bach menuets.

I think, there's something good there, despite some accents that aren't there, or unevenness of the tempo.

Tell me the truth.

Thanks.

[Samantha]

... I think Russian Romantic Songs is Imperial Equivalent of American Blues. ...I'll try to learn some. Sounds like muffled round tone of my Tenor F may suit well to such style (or not).

Emphasis mine, above Misha. You may well be onto something here. Certainly your first set of clips took me straight back to late night kitchen talk with dear Russian friends. Спасибо тебе, друг!

Samantha

[Dirge]

Here's my attempt to play Bach menuets.

I think, there's something good there, despite some accents that aren't there, or unevenness of the tempo.

Tell me the truth.

Thanks.

 

Misha, I don't get a sense of the tempo coming through is the immediate comment.

 

I also can't help wondering whether you aren't making a rod for your own back with this violin stuff. It's not playing to the strengths of the instrument to play a solo melody; it's the chordal possibilities that make a concertina a brilliant device. It would be just as hard work, and, I suspect, just as unfulfilling, if you tried to play these on a piano; it just doesn't seem the right piece for the instrument. A good challenge to try, I admit though. I will also confess that I find the original versions a bit austere for my taste anyway, so what do I know...

 

Why don't you try one of the keyboard suite minuets if that is your fancy? (on Mutopia, I suspect)

[RatFace]

I think, there's something good there, despite some accents that aren't there, or unevenness of the tempo.

 

I agree!

 

Whilst they're not "music for dancing", I think they should evoke feelings of moving gracefully - so the phrasing should flow, and fluctuations in tempo should be graceful and pleasing - never abrupt, and never so great that it would require a different kind of movement to fit (hope that makes sense). Most of the time this is the case in your playing, but in a few places it's not, and those parts don't flow.

 

Also - I'm pretty sure I could pick out almost all of the places you change bellows - often because there's a little timing interruption, or "instability" after changing direction. For this kind of music the phrasing shouldn't come from "incidental" mechanics of the instrument (though you might want to use bellows changes to articulate sometimes).

 

I agree in a way that this kind of music doesn't really suite the concertina (ooo in danger of getting onto my favourite topic of why no music suits the concertina!), but that's no reason not to play it. The great thing about Bach is that the music would shine through if it was played on a kazoo - so long as it was played well!