Basic Hand Strap Question

[ragtimer]

This is a really basic (i.e., "dumb") question about had straps used on Anglo and Duet concertinas.

 

Does your strap accept your entire hand thru it?

Or just the four fingers, and your thumb lies outside the strap?

 

In the latter case, the upper anchored end of the strap lies in the crotch between your thumb and forefinger.

 

I honestly can't remember which setup the few Anglos I've tried out, used. So, which is more common out there? I'd especially like to hear from Duet owners.

 

Now I'll prejudice your response by saying which system I like better:

 

I have two Hayden Duets. One uses the second scheme (thumb outside the strap), which I seem to prefer. The strap in your thumb crotch seems to give a stable positioning of the hand versus the buttons, and lets you relax. IF you need extra control and stability for a hard-to-reach note, you can tighten up your thumb against the strap momentarily.

 

The other box puts the entire hand thru the strap, and the hand rest bar has a cutout at the top where the thumb rests. I find this system does not give me as good a control of position, and the constant thumb pressure makes my hand sore after a while. This system does not regulate how far in and out your hand goes under the strap, and I think that causes problems hitting the notes consistently.

 

TIA, Mike K.

[david_boveri]

This is a really basic (i.e., "dumb") question about had straps used on Anglo and Duet concertinas.

 

Does your strap accept your entire hand thru it?

Or just the four fingers, and your thumb lies outside the strap?

 

In the latter case, the upper anchored end of the strap lies in the crotch between your thumb and forefinger.

 

I honestly can't remember which setup the few Anglos I've tried out, used. So, which is more common out there? I'd especially like to hear from Duet owners.

 

Now I'll prejudice your response by saying which system I like better:

 

I have two Hayden Duets. One uses the second scheme (thumb outside the strap), which I seem to prefer. The strap in your thumb crotch seems to give a stable positioning of the hand versus the buttons, and lets you relax. IF you need extra control and stability for a hard-to-reach note, you can tighten up your thumb against the strap momentarily.

 

The other box puts the entire hand thru the strap, and the hand rest bar has a cutout at the top where the thumb rests. I find this system does not give me as good a control of position, and the constant thumb pressure makes my hand sore after a while. This system does not regulate how far in and out your hand goes under the strap, and I think that causes problems hitting the notes consistently.

 

TIA, Mike K.

 

i've never played duet, but on anglo your thumb is outside the strap. i am sure at a beginning level you might not notice the difference, but you need your thumb outside to use the hand strap and for proper bellows control. it would probably also cause some soft tissue damage to keep your thumb inside on an anglo, as it would cause undue stress and pressure.

[Hooves]

This is a really basic (i.e., "dumb") question about had straps used on Anglo and Duet concertinas.

 

Does your strap accept your entire hand thru it?

Or just the four fingers, and your thumb lies outside the strap?

 

In the latter case, the upper anchored end of the strap lies in the crotch between your thumb and forefinger.

 

I honestly can't remember which setup the few Anglos I've tried out, used. So, which is more common out there? I'd especially like to hear from Duet owners.

 

Now I'll prejudice your response by saying which system I like better:

 

I have two Hayden Duets. One uses the second scheme (thumb outside the strap), which I seem to prefer. The strap in your thumb crotch seems to give a stable positioning of the hand versus the buttons, and lets you relax. IF you need extra control and stability for a hard-to-reach note, you can tighten up your thumb against the strap momentarily.

 

The other box puts the entire hand thru the strap, and the hand rest bar has a cutout at the top where the thumb rests. I find this system does not give me as good a control of position, and the constant thumb pressure makes my hand sore after a while. This system does not regulate how far in and out your hand goes under the strap, and I think that causes problems hitting the notes consistently.

 

TIA, Mike K.

 

I keep my thumb outside, it just felt more natural to do it that way, easier to hold the box(for me at least).

 

On my little Giordy button accordion, I have difficulty with the bass side, I think I should have gotten a left hand version as I find it so much easier to play it left handed rather than right handed (although I am right handed), but if I do it that way hitting the air button is near impossible, so lately I have been trying to play it "the right way" which has become rather frustrating.

[ragtimer]

i've never played duet, but on anglo your thumb is outside the strap. i am sure at a beginning level you might not notice the difference, but you need your thumb outside to use the hand strap and for proper bellows control. it would probably also cause some soft tissue damage to keep your thumb inside on an anglo, as it would cause undue stress and pressure.

Thanks, I was hoping to hear from Anglo players too.

Everything you say just confirms what I feel -- better control of the instrument with thumb outside, and keeping the thumb inside, pressing against the hand rest, is definitely causing some soreness here.

 

If I could change the handrest and strap setup on my Bastari ... maybe "borrow" the hardware off my Stagi once its bellows wear out? Just kidding -- maybe! --Mike K.

[David Barnert]

I have two 46-key Haydens (a Bastari and a Wheatstone, both from the mid 1980s). Both are thumb-outside-the-strap jobs. Perhaps I am imagining things, but I have the sense that as I play I am constantly adjusting the strap tension by regulating the degree to which I am pinching it between the thumb and the hand.

[ragtimer]

I have two 46-key Haydens (a Bastari and a Wheatstone, both from the mid 1980s). Both are thumb-outside-the-strap jobs. Perhaps I am imagining things, but I have the sense that as I play I am constantly adjusting the strap tension by regulating the degree to which I am pinching it between the thumb and the hand.

If you're imagining this, then great minds think alike

I have always had the same impression, that I tightened up the strap with my thumb for a "tough" passage or reach. I think this is a great feature of the thumb-outside system. (FWIW, I read that German cellists and bassists hold their bows with their hand backwards, so they can vary the hair tension with their thumbs.)

 

Don't I recall your having a larger (than 46) Hayden? Is is it just that you played your 46 so well it sounded like more? Anyway, Bastari went to the whole-hand strap and handle setup for their 67. Maybe this is part of the Bandoneon tradition, where players use mostly the draw. Remember, my 67 is built like a bandoneon.

 

But I think everyone is agreeing with me that the whole-hand setup works less well than the thumb-outside scheme, which seems to predominate in the responses so far.

 

BTW, there was a TV news shot the other night with a good view of your "vocational bellows" doing their vertical thing for an OR patient. Did remind me of a concertina, and you. --Mike K.

[frogspawn]

Thumbs outside on a Crane duet, and, thanks to recent advice, loose enough for my fingers to reach as far as needed.

 

Richard

[david_boveri]

I have two 46-key Haydens (a Bastari and a Wheatstone, both from the mid 1980s). Both are thumb-outside-the-strap jobs. Perhaps I am imagining things, but I have the sense that as I play I am constantly adjusting the strap tension by regulating the degree to which I am pinching it between the thumb and the hand.

 

i dont play duet, but on the anglo, that is a bad idea. it seems good at first, and even for a while can be fine. but experience has shown me it leads to numbness and soft tissue damage. it isnt really noticeable if you're casually playing, but if you play for five hours a day for several days straight, it can be a big deal! my hand went numb for a couple days at a summer camp, once. it happened again last year after one night of playing on a concertina who's straps were way too loose.

 

if you are pinching with your thumb, you straps are too loose. the straps should do the holding. the only pressure on the concertina should be on your palm, the back of your hand, and the heel of your palm. some players merely touch with the heel, while others apply profound pressure (such as brian peters).

 

you should be able to play the concertina with your thumbs spread wide out with NO DIFFERENCE in the control of your bellows and buttons. if there is, then you are putting undue pressure on your thumbs.

 

also, you should think about using the correct muscles to control the bellows. the control should come from your upper arm and even your shoulders, not your wrists. using your wrists to apply pressure is bad for tone and could cause damage to your arms in the long term.

 

to find your correct muscles, close the bellows and push as hard as you can. do short bursts. notice muscles which you are using. you can also do this with your palms touching, and no concertina (put your palms together, and apply quick bursts of pressure, always remaining in contact). the muscles that you will feel when you push your palms together quickly will be the same as when you play your concertina. also, pull apart on the concertina in quick bursts while it is closed (dont pull for more than a split second, as it will be bad for the bads), which is the same pressure as doing staccato. the muscles you will feel will be the same you will use to play while pulling out. alternatively, you can do this while someone is pushing your hands together and you push outwards (little brothers work best!). finally, experiment with using these muscles and holding down the air button but not pressing any notes, to get a feel of how the pressures work accross the whole range of the bellows.

Edited December 4, 2007 by david_boveri

[ragtimer]

I have two 46-key Haydens (a Bastari and a Wheatstone, both from the mid 1980s). Both are thumb-outside-the-strap jobs. Perhaps I am imagining things, but I have the sense that as I play I am constantly adjusting the strap tension by regulating the degree to which I am pinching it between the thumb and the hand.

 

i dont play duet, but on the anglo, that is a bad idea. it seems good at first, and even for a while can be fine. but experience has shown me it leads to numbness and soft tissue damage. it isnt really noticeable if you're casually playing, but if you play for five hours a day for several days straight, it can be a big deal! my hand went numb for a couple days at a summer camp, once. it happened again last year after one night of playing on a concertina who's straps were way too loose.

 

if you are pinching with your thumb, you straps are too loose. the straps should do the holding.

It appears that you ahve no quarrel with the thumb being outside the strap (please correct me if I'm wrong), but rather with squeezing the thumb against the strap to tighten it up. I can udnerstand that, but on both my Haydens, the strap runs out of holes to tighten it further, and the straps get wider there so punching extra holes would not help.

 

FWIW, last nite I tried playing my big Bastari 67 with my thums outsidse the strap. The strap is so thick and stiff there, that it is hard to press the srap into the thumb notch in the palm bar, but with time the straps may loosesn up and conform better. Anyway, it was pretty successful, in temrs of control and hitting the right notes, tho my thumbs still got sore after a while.

 

The Bastari is definitely designed to be played with the entire hand thru its straps, but I think I can make it work with the thumbs outside. More experience is needed to be sure. --Mike K.

[Dirge]

This sort of stuff is so important to your playing you should be prepared to modify if necessary. in my opinion, Mike.

 

With the straps, can you take in the fixed end to avoid punching holes into the wider bit?

 

With the big one can you remove the hand rest and make another shorter one (it's a very simple thing) or saw a bit off the end of the existing ones? The only hesitation is the thought that perhaps the designer knew what he was doing when he laid this out and we are missing something. Making a replacement and keeping the old ones might be safer!

[Mikefule]

Apart from what I've always read and been taught... if you look at the shape of the hand rest and the arrangement of the strap on an Anglo, it is asymmetrical, and you can only operate the air button (and the drone) by having your thumb outside the strap. It has clearly been designed with this in mind. Also, you get more stability when playing standing up if you can trap the strap between thumb and finger.

[hjcjones]

I have two 46-key Haydens (a Bastari and a Wheatstone, both from the mid 1980s). Both are thumb-outside-the-strap jobs. Perhaps I am imagining things, but I have the sense that as I play I am constantly adjusting the strap tension by regulating the degree to which I am pinching it between the thumb and the hand.

 

i dont play duet, but on the anglo, that is a bad idea.

 

That's an interesting comment. My impression is that whereas most beginners have their straps fairly tight (possibly too tight), most advanced players keep their straps looser. This allows more hand movement to reach the more complicated fingerings, but needs some use of the thumb to keep control.

 

Most of the players I know play harmonic style, where you need to have free movement of the left hand to finger chords, while cross-rowing on the right to keep the melody in the same bellows direction as the chord, which can also mean adjusting the hand position. Having looser straps and controlling tension with the thumb facilitates this

 

But certainly, if you're experiencing any kind of pain or discomfort while playing, you need to look at your complete playing position to avoid long-term damage.

 

And always, thumb outside the straps. In fact, I don't think I've ever seen an anglo or duet with straps designed to take the whole hand. So far as the anglo is concerned, I would expect such an arrangement to impede the use of the air button, and left hand drone button where fitted.

[ragtimer]

I have two 46-key Haydens (a Bastari and a Wheatstone, both from the mid 1980s). Both are thumb-outside-the-strap jobs. Perhaps I am imagining things, but I have the sense that as I play I am constantly adjusting the strap tension by regulating the degree to which I am pinching it between the thumb and the hand.

 

i dont play duet, but on the anglo, that is a bad idea.

 

That's an interesting comment. My impression is that whereas most beginners have their straps fairly tight (possibly too tight), most advanced players keep their straps looser. This allows more hand movement to reach the more complicated fingerings, but needs some use of the thumb to keep control.

 

Most of the players I know play harmonic style, where you need to have free movement of the left hand to finger chords, while cross-rowing on the right to keep the melody in the same bellows direction as the chord, which can also mean adjusting the hand position. Having looser straps and controlling tension with the thumb facilitates this.

This would certainly apply to any Duet as well, where wide movements across the buttons are needed for rather short musical intervals and close-harmony chords (versus the Anglo, where a wide movement would be a large musical interval). Duets are of course played "harmonic" style most of the time.

And always, thumb outside the straps. In fact, I don't think I've ever seen an anglo or duet with straps designed to take the whole hand. So far as the anglo is concerned, I would expect such an arrangement to impede the use of the air button, and left hand drone button where fitted.

I agree, but my Bastari 67 Hayden straps and hand rest seem definitely designed for the whole hand. But this may be a standard feature of Bandoneons, on which this instrument is patterned (see my thread udner Instrument Construction & Repair). I'm now trying to play it with the thumb outside, but the thick strap's stiffness really doesn't encourage that. --Mike K.

[ragtimer]

This sort of stuff is so important to your playing you should be prepared to modify if necessary. in my opinion, Mike.

 

With the straps, can you take in the fixed end to avoid punching holes into the wider bit?

 

With the big one can you remove the hand rest and make another shorter one (it's a very simple thing) or saw a bit off the end of the existing ones? The only hesitation is the thought that perhaps the designer knew what he was doing when he laid this out and we are missing something. Making a replacement and keeping the old ones might be safer!

These are all good ideas, and yes, I've considered making new handles/straps for the Bastari 67. Tinkering with the ends does require threading 30-plus buttons back thru their felt-bushed holes -- did it once, not eager to do it often

 

I can try taking in the strap at the non-buckle end. Then think about handmaking duplicates of the Stagi 46 handles to put on the Bastari.

 

Ironic that the Stagi, a "renegade" design not to Brian Hayden's specs, is much more ergonomic than the Bastari, which does conform to specs. Maybe the handle design was just slapped on without thinking too hard. The Stagi handles definitely line up the fingers with a row of buttons properly, while the Bastari tilts the fingers across three rows, requiring constant mental corrections while playing.

 

[i had typed a much logner replay to this, but it was lost in a network crash] --Mike K.

Edited December 5, 2007 by ragtimer