Dirge Posted March 1, 2008 Share Posted March 1, 2008 (edited) (this was a needlessly stroppy and negative comment put in under the influence of alcohol and Tom Jones so I have killed it. Sorry I posted it.) Edited March 2, 2008 by Dirge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithfre Posted March 2, 2008 Share Posted March 2, 2008 There are, from what I can tell online, three Bandoneon systems: the unified Bandoneon, the Rheinische layout, and the Piguri layout. The last one is unisonoric, and is most popular in France. Apparently there's also a Manoury system (invented by Olivier Manoury?), which combines the diminished layout of B/C system with the traditional placement of the buttons (rather than moving them to the edge of the instrument as on the Geuns hybrid). I found it at http://www.bandonion-carlsfeld.de/deu/index2.htm There's an English language page where it's also listed, but not under the name Manoury. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BertramLevy Posted March 5, 2008 Share Posted March 5, 2008 Where to begin. The bandoneon is not like the anglo systems It is a 2 keyboard organ. It does not have a central key nor is any one key easier or harder than another. they are all hard. There are a few chords on the push using 3 consecutive buttons (A and G) but they are of no importance. Having said that, there are fingering problems which are more workable in one direction than another. For example you are completing a phrase and you have used all your fingers - the only way to continue the phrase is to cross your fingers or use the same finger twice.Neither of them is attractive options, When you hit those situations, the other directional fingering usually holds the answer. This is the great virtue of the double system. Once you learn the 2 directions, one sees the great facility of the arrangement and the grace with which you can play progressions of complex chords with moving baselines. Learning 2 systems (4 keyboards ) is very difficult at first and requires a totally different method of learning. Especially because your hands are always changing positions to cover the immense fingerboard. It requires conceptualizing drawings of each phrase in your head. (since you cn not see the clavier). The best way to start is to play 4 voice corals 2 notes on eiher side. One learns to move each voice independently. The music of frescobaldi and shumann are good for this. . Then one can begin to move the voices independently with baselines such as the clementi sonatinas. Bach comes next. With Chopin one learns to play one side sofly while the other side sings boldly. This is possible because the reeds are soft (the sound is carried by the zinc plates) and as a result the sound of the reeds is very moldable, The bandoneon sound is very sensitive to the attack of the fingers To answer you question about why so many orchestral players play on the out. It has to do with weight. If you are supporting the instument with your hands, they become limited in their ability to shift positions. Position work is critical as the hand most always surround all the buttons in the phrase. If they dont you must rotate to another position (even for one note). Anyway when the instrument is in the out position, it has a natural support by falling against the hands with its weight. Since most orchestral work is in short phrases, the player can recover air at the rests. However when playing solos or variations (usually the 1/16 note finales to many tangos) you must play in both directions there is a whole technology on playing on the push which must be mastered. It means changing the angle of the bellows and pushing into the thighs. The bandoneon is unbelievably difficult if you are tryng to self teach. I can attest to this. Having spent 12 years trying to teach myself, I kept making the same mistakes and was not feeling the same comfort level as with my concertina. That is the reason that I moved to argentiina in 2005 to enroll in the conservatory. I was told that the first 6 mnths I would learn how to hold the insrument. The second 6 months were spent learning to produce sound. It requires great patience to begin again. Happily I now, after 3 years, feel that the insrument is mine even though I still have a lifetime of work left. It is an amazing insrument but one has to pay one's dues to recieve its pleasures. In addition to the intimacy with the instrument, I have also had the opportunity to play the great music of theo f classical music world. The bandoneon has changed how I play the concertina and I find a greater elegance in the little 30 butons now. The change involve sound production in the execution of the phrases. Bertram Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithfre Posted March 5, 2008 Share Posted March 5, 2008 Many thanks for taking the time to reply in such detail, Bertram! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Barnert Posted March 5, 2008 Share Posted March 5, 2008 The bandoneon has changed how I play the concertina and I find a greater elegance in the little 30 butons now. The change involve sound production in the execution of the phrases. All this about the Bandoneon is fascinating. But it is nice to hear you are still playing the Anglo. Are there any recent recordings to illustrate the influence what you have learned about the Bandoneon has had on your concertina playing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ocd Posted March 5, 2008 Share Posted March 5, 2008 Bandoneon recordings would be welcome too ocd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BertramLevy Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 The bandoneon has changed how I play the concertina and I find a greater elegance in the little 30 butons now. The change involve sound production in the execution of the phrases. All this about the Bandoneon is fascinating. But it is nice to hear you are still playing the Anglo. Are there any recent recordings to illustrate the influence what you have learned about the Bandoneon has had on your concertina playing? Absolutely my bandoneon studies have changed my concertina playing although I had developed a similar approach in phrasing just before I began the bandoneon At that time I was playing a series of choros by the great brazilian Jacob de bandolim I also had adapted a series of french dances musettes and bourres in the accordian style. I was actually thinking of writing a second tutor called "the pearl" based on scales in one direction. But then I got the fever and redirected my energies. From a technical standpoint phrases are played in the air and the instrument comes to the fingers instead of the fingers to the instrument Its complicated and easier to demonstrate than talk about. Also I preload the instrument more to prevent the bite when the reed first starts to vibrate If I knew how to send a sample on this dicussion group I would send one along I recorded a few cuts several years ago on my double reed concertina which a friend of mine in france (Emanuelle Pariselle) designed and built for me (which he calls the Levitina) Bertram Incidentally if you know any advanced player looking for a remarkable dipper, I have a very special 36 button 8 sided ebony rotary instrument that I will never use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce McCaskey Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 Bertram, I may be able to offer some assistance in making the sound files available to the group if we are still on for getting together this weekend regarding the concertina. I'll exchange private email with you later in the week to set up the day and time. Bruce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ceemonster Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 bertram, what does "rotary" mean in ref to your dipper? all this bandoneon talk is riveting. i had thought it would be my next instrument, but i am now seriously considering c-system chromatic accordion....we shall see. i would love to hear more BL concertina & bandoneon clips.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m3838 Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 (edited) bertram, what does "rotary" mean in ref to your dipper? all this bandoneon talk is riveting. i had thought it would be my next instrument, but i am now seriously considering c-system chromatic accordion....we shall see. i would love to hear more BL concertina & bandoneon clips.... Perhaps this might be a good cross? Here is the sample: There are two issues. You have to rotate the wrist to play chromatic system, and in a smallish instrument the straps are an inconvinience, when you play either at the bottom (for C) or at the top I haven't tried it, but suspect that it just requires fingering technique, but I may be wrong. The other issue is stability. Wrists slide under the strap and it takes time to adjust to. There is a chance for an upgrade, as Harry Geuns plans to introduce a step up from this one, with better reeds, mounted on large plate. The next one is hand-made Gabla, with larger range and large plates. There are more, but I have to ask for a permission to post user name and password. Edited March 11, 2008 by m3838 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david fabre Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 Hello Bertram, Could you please tell us a bit more about this famous double-reed "Levitina" from E. Pariselle ? Are the reeds tuned an octave appart (bandoneon-like) or same octave and slightly out of tune (accordion-like) ? What kind of reeds does it have ? Is it a standart 30-button or a special alyout ? This instrument was mentionned in the booklet of the "anglo international" CD but I guess this is not the one you used on this disk. If you ever come back to this "pearl" method I guess many of us here will be interested.... David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m3838 Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 Hello Bertram, Could you please tell us a bit more about this famous double-reed "Levitina" from E. Pariselle ? Are the reeds tuned an octave appart (bandoneon-like) or same octave and slightly out of tune (accordion-like) ? What kind of reeds does it have ? Is it a standart 30-button or a special alyout ? This instrument was mentionned in the booklet of the "anglo international" CD but I guess this is not the one you used on this disk. If you ever come back to this "pearl" method I guess many of us here will be interested.... David Here's what came up when I typed "Levitina" in search: Irina Solomonovna Levitina (born June 8, 1954, Leningrad, USSR) is a Russian-American chess and bridge Woman Grandmaster. Double reeds, huh? Who knew! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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