Jack Issues

[MGsailor]

First, my cudos to Bob Tedrow for answering how to fix a stuck G

I took the ends off, repositioned the key, slight "tweak" to the spring to correct vertical positioning and it works.

 

BUT - the low E - left side... first - low hissing frrrrrr sound on push. Pull sounded fine.

end back off, checked everything... slight tweak to valve to see if it was stuck one way.

Work - but rattle hiss in note now. How can I make it play clear again?

 

I just bought this instrument used and am loving it. Actually learning it. But that metalic hiss!

 

Help

 

THANKS

Edited November 28, 2007 by MGsailor

[m3838]

First, my cudos to Bob Tedrow for answering how to fix a stuck G

I took the ends off, repositioned the key, slight "tweak" to the spring to correct vertical positioning and it works.

 

BUT - the low E - left side... first - low hissing frrrrrr sound on push. Pull sounded fine.

end back off, checked everything... slight tweak to valve to see if it was stuck one way.

Work - but rattle hiss in note now. How can I make it play clear again?

 

I just bought this instrument used and am loving it. Actually learning it. But that metalic hiss!

 

Help

 

THANKS

 

 

Metallic hiss? Sounds like reed is not aligned along the slot edges.

But in this age it would be easy enough to make a video or mp3 file with the sound.

If it's misalignment, take the screwdriver and thin metal sheen, or razor blade, put it under the reed and push with the screwdriver sideways until the reed is free.

I found that the upper plastic valves in Jack must be creased in the middle to form sort of spring, pressing the valve to the reedplate. This eliminates the fluttering, esp. at low volumes.

In gerenal I must say that Wim Wakker should take better care of his Jacks. All the Jacks I tried were not set up well.

Hissing, buzzing, fluttering. All is fixable, and when done, Jack is very playable, but having such a hype and claim to quality, Concertina Connection should stick to it.

Just my opinion based on limited expirience.

[RiverHamble]

My Jack is suffering from a leaky top A on the left hand side where the button won't return.

 

There also seems to be a wheezing noise from within somewhere, not to mention that the right hand thumb strap came off the other day, nut, screw, everything and I have only had it three weeks!!!!

 

Other than that I think that I am quite happy with it apart from it makes the most god awful noise when I try to play it

[wim wakker]

Here are simple solutions for problems that might occur with the Jackie/Jack and Rochelle models. The only tools you’ll ever need to repair one of these instruments is a screw driver, paring knife and a lighter.

PLEASE, before doing anything to these instruments, contact the dealer you bought it from, or send us an email… With over 1500 of these instruments around the world, they have proven to be pretty reliable. The ‘failure’ rate is only about 2%, including the failures caused by ‘owner repairs’ which still outnumbers transport damage... In this price class such a low failure rate is very rare. However, we do our best to get it as close to 0% as possible.

 

Rattling noises:

 

- pressure on the aluminum frames (especially after transport) due to temperature/humidity changes

play the instrument for a few weeks and give it time to adjust to its new environment.

 

- poor reed alignment

center the reed with a small paring knife. Insert the tip of the knife between the reed and frame close to the tip of the reed. Gently push against the reed and try. Repeat until you get a clear sound. If the rattling gets worse, push the reed in the opposite direction…

 

- damaged valve

When a valve is damaged, it can resonate on the air flow. Valves should be flat against the frame. NEVER crease a valve.

 

- action resonance

Especially on lower notes (e.g. Jack, Rochelle left hand notes) action parts (key/lever) can resonate, causing a rattling noise. It seems that almost all of these rattles disappear after a few months, when the reeds produce a different harmonic spectrum.

 

- Reed frame resonance

sometimes extreme temperature changes during transport can cause the resin component in the reed wax to shrink a little. When this happens the reed frame is not held by the wax anymore. Heat up a screw driver with a lighter and hold it against the wax ABOVE the frame. As soon as the wax melts remove your screw driver.

 

 

Sticking keys:

 

- Sometimes a key can be out of alignment due to transport or a player that pushes against the side of the key rather than straight down.

Look at the side of the key from different angles. Check if it is leaning over a little. If it does, just push it in the opposite direction. Thumb pressure should suffice.

 

- The second reason for a sticking key can be a tight rivet. A tight rivet might work fine for a long time. That’s why it can ‘slip’ our triple quality control.

just put a little drop of lubricating oil on the rivet.

 

Please keep in mind that every free reed instrument, including these entry lever models, need to be played in. They’ve traveled around the world through different temperature and humidity zones. Experience has shown that they will adjust to almost any climate, ranging from Scandinavia to south America if you only give them time.

Again, when you have problems with your instrument, first contact your dealer or send us an email.. Please don’t result to home cures unless you really know what you are doing.

 

Wim Wakker

Concertina Connection v.o.f.

[m3838]

Valves should be flat against the frame. NEVER crease a valve.

 

Yes, ofcourse valves should lay lfat. The valves on low reeds are comprised of several layers of acetate and a leather.

What I meant by creasing is to use very upper acetate valve to increase the pressure on the leather sealing valve, so it actually helps it to stay flat. And it's not too powerfull, like a metal spring, so it does not impede the sound. If it does, then creasing it back a little will fix it. Like below: 1 - is problem, 2 - is fixed

[Pete Dunk]

I must have different models of Jack and Jackie to you m3838 because the valves in mine are all acetate (if that's what it is), no leather to be seen.

[m3838]

I must have different models of Jack and Jackie to you m3838 because the valves in mine are all acetate (if that's what it is), no leather to be seen.

 

What's the difference? Just crease the upper thinner layer to make a spring, closing the lower layer.

I don't remember whether mine have leather or not. Seemed like leather though. It's been a long time.

[wim wakker]

All our Jackie/Jack and Rochelle models have foil valves. There are no leather parts.

The advantage is multiple: no hanging valves due to humidity, age, etc., and the valves can be air flow calibrated. In fact, the valves we use on these instruments are made in Germany and are pretty ‘high tech’. Depending on air flow requirement, different materials/thicknesses are used and combined. If you look at the larger foil valves on the lower reeds, you can see that each material has a different length, adding up to a certain resistance. Creasing any of these layers increases the valve resistance and will most likely result in slower speaking reeds. Again, never fiddle with the valves.. It took me a long time to calibrate these instruments….

 

Wim Wakker

Concertina Connection v.o.f.

 

P.S. foil valves can only be used with accordion reeded concertinas, not traditionally made instruments.

[m3838]

If you look at the larger foil valves on the lower reeds, you can see that each material has a different length, adding up to a certain resistance. Creasing any of these layers increases the valve resistance and will most likely result in slower speaking reeds.

 

So I play the Jack and I hear fluttering noise at low volume. And on high volume I here classic "plop" before the reed speaks. Obvious sign of valve drooping out. Why shouldn't I re-adjust the valve? With leather you can straighten it (marginally), but with acetate you need to do something else. You need to increas the resistance to keep the valve flat. Creasing or adding a metal spring does the job. It's not rocket science, and what's the point of calibration, if after some time (in my case, when it was about 2 months in use by a friend I bought it from) the calibration goes off? So one needs to go in and fix it. Regularly.

But let's have some fun. I was thinking about how to make Jackie a two voice octave tuned bandonion, without expences of ordering custom made instrument. It looks like the second bank of reeds will protrude from 6 sided cabinet (and why this instruments are 6-sided?). so there is a need in additional cabinet, glued to the action board. There may also be need for additional set of bellows.

So here's what the monstrosity may look like, if assembled:

[/img]

Edited November 30, 2007 by m3838

[wim wakker]

Foil valves will always lay flat on the frame. They don’t droop. Not after 2 weeks, 2 months or after 2 years… that’s another advantage of foil valves. They are not affected by gravity or any other outside influence, unless they are damaged. Valve calibration is permanent. Once bent, they will never lay flat again.

Gurgling foil valves should be reglued (any PVA glue will do). The plopping noise is common with these valves because of the distance they open. They can open up to 1-1.5 cm from the frame. They are no obstruction at all for the air flow, which results it the maximum reed performance. When you put a spring on a valve you won’t hear the plop anymore because it will open only a few millimetres and cause a major air flow obstruction. Result: slow speaking reeds, low volume, dull sound. But, you won’t hear a plop….

 

Your "monstrosity" looks quite interesting…I guess it all depends on what kind of playability your expect to achieve. A few problems you might want to solve before putting any money in it: What do you want to do about the direct and indirect air flow and chamber pressure. If they are to sound in octaves, you should at least make sure these factors are identical. An other one: under what angle are you planning to install the reeds. Amplifonic would guarantee acceptable swing cycle performance, but is impossible because of the shape of your instrument…

I am just an outsider, but I would order an instrument from a professional bandoneon maker…I bet it would be a lot cheaper and better sounding.

 

Wim Wakker

Concertina Connection v.o.f.

[Stephen Chambers]

Your "monstrosity" looks quite interesting…I guess it all depends on what kind of playability your expect to achieve. ... I am just an outsider, but I would order an instrument from a professional bandoneon maker…I bet it would be a lot cheaper and better sounding.

Wim,

 

I know somebody else who would like an English-system Bandoneon (in fact I wouldn't mind one myself either), maybe Harry should get designing?

[wim wakker]

I think Harry Geuns would be the right person to ask... There are not many bandoneon makers around who can design and make such an instrument.

 

wim

[m3838]

Your "monstrosity" looks quite interesting…I guess it all depends on what kind of playability your expect to achieve. ... I am just an outsider, but I would order an instrument from a professional bandoneon maker…I bet it would be a lot cheaper and better sounding.

Wim,

 

I know somebody else who would like an English-system Bandoneon (in fact I wouldn't mind one myself either), maybe Harry should get designing?

We exchanged emails with Harry about this.

He said the designes are already there, he just needs at least 10 orders. For any system: Hayden, English, Crane.

He seemed to has been thinking along these lines. But even if he gets 10 orders, the price will be prohibitive. Imagine, you have this, but there are no tutors, no school, no teachers, and the technique will most likely be different. It's OK to spend a few hundreds on such a project, then scrape it, if it doens't work, but a few thousands? And you can't resell it.

 

To Wim:

1. about valves:

But I swear I opened Jack and saw valves bent outward. And after I made a "spring", the tone, volume and responce actually improved, esp. on low volume, which is a big deal for Jack.

2. about 2 voice Jackie/Jack "Bandoneon":

Don't miss my point. It is not to spend excessive amounts of time and money. It's to tinker with existing design and adapt it to be something else. That's where the fun is. My chromaitzed 20 button Lachenal is my main supporter. Even with additional reeds it's some $500 cheaper than 22 button Edgley and the like.

So I'd like to use the Jack, reglue Jackie's reedblocks right alonside the original, drill additional holes underneath, and attach longer palletts to the pads. The main problem here is the possible necessidy to construct additional cabinets, which will defeat the purpose completely. If only Jack was rectangular, this may have been avoidable. Perhabs Jack's reedbanks should be moved too, so only half the hole is supplying air to the low reeds. This may tone down the reeds and provide for better balance. I'll have to open my Jackie to see what space we have.

Something like this:

[m3838]

Oh I see, I will have to reverse the reeds, and they may not work well.

OK, so I will have to do something along these lines, if space permits:

[wntrmute]

Mr. Wakker, I don't know if you saw my Cheap Concertina thread, but I'd just like to say that the Rochelle I purchased from Mr. Tedrow was a gigantic improvement over the cheap red concertina-shaped thing I had gotten a Christmas past. The step up in quality was truly amazing.

 

But you still can't have my Ceili.

 

 

m3838, I think Chemnizers, Bandoneons, and octave tuned Anglo-Germans (which are all developed in one way or another from Uhlig's original 'Akkordian nach neuer Art' German concertina) all use a combination of of techniques to get more than one reed for each note -- I think that a back-to-back upright arrangement with another bank laying flat is typical for three reeded tones (and long rectangular holes and pads -- long plate reeds most often, though I think there were and maybe still are some with accordion reed blocks) -- maybe having the reed blocks back to back with a common air chamber would work for a two-reeded octave tuned instrument? I don't think the wax and angled blocks would be very secure, but I'm no expert.

It would be kind of interesting to apply this typically germanic style to the English system.

[wntrmute]

(and why this instruments are 6-sided?)

Because Wheatstone made his original instrument six-sided. The original german concertinas were all squarish, eventually the german marketing people figured they could boost sales in england by making their instruments six-sided, too. The concertinas for the german market stayed squarish, and the Chemnitzer and Bandoneon were eventually born.

I think Wheatstone made his instrument six-sided because he reckoned that the perfect accoustic shape would be a circle, and the hexagon was a good approximation of that. Eventually he went to an octogon -- dodecagons and heptawhatsitgons (whatever a 16 sided thing is) came along later. Those are all shapes that are well adapted to a radial reedpan. The grid style reedpan would be better served with a square shape. I think that was why the Harrington square concertinas are a bit cheaper than the hexagons -- the square shape is easier to work with.

 

At least that's what I've gleaned from the interweb series of tubes.

There's a couple of more reliable sources who frequent the boards here; I'd defer to any of them if they answer.

[ragtimer]

Oh I see, I will have to reverse the reeds, and they may not work well.

OK, so I will have to do something along these lines, if space permits:

In your upper left image, you should have the reeds facing away from each other. That's how my Bastari Hayden 67 is built.

 

The upper right image, with one reeed cell lying flat and the other stood up as usual, is often used in bandoneons. Don't knwo if you'll have room for that.

 

The lower left iamge, with the angled reed banks held together by wax, just might hodl together long enough for you to put it back together and squeeze a couple notes out However, how will you install the little dividers between adjacent notes?

 

I see you're bidding on a small bandoneon on eBay. Will that become an experimental lab animal?

 

If you rent my Bastari Hayden duirng January, promise -- no experiments --Mike K.

[ragtimer]

But let's have some fun. I was thinking about how to make Jackie a two voice octave tuned bandonion, without expences of ordering custom made instrument.

I'm not so sure that you really want an octave-voiced instrument. After a few months with my Bastari Hayden 67, I believe that octave reeds may be a good idea IF a lot of fine tweaking is done to them.

 

The unison reed and its octave have to sound like one reed, speaking with one voice. To achieve this, several conditions must be met:

 

(1) the reeds must be in perfect tune with each other. I'd thought that a little mistuning might get you a "wet/tremolo/celeste" effect for free, but no -- it just sounds like two reeds out of tune, and keeps them from blending together.

 

(2) The two reeds must attack together when the button is pressed. If one speaks later, it spoils the blend.

At low volumes (gently squeezed), one might not speak at all, which really uspets the ear.

 

(3) Both reeds should have a loudness relation to each other that is consistent going up the scale. That is, if the octave reeds are louder than the unison reeds, they should be that way on every note. Otherwise the tone quality changes from note to note, and even between push and pull.

 

A master reed voicer might be able to build a bandoneon satisfying all these conditions. In fact, most reed organs do prettty well at it (and they have reigsters to turn off reed banks). But if you haven't got oodles of time and expertise and boxes of spare reeds, spare yourself the frustration of a less-than-perfect octave-reeded instrument.