Why No Good Instruments With Less That 30 Buttons ?

[david fabre]

I'm wondering why anglo makers only propose 30 buttons instruments, sometimes more,

but never less. Of course I'm not speaking about cheap Chinese or Italian 20 buttons

but about concertina-reeded ones or good hybrids.

 

One reason could be that the most popular style at the present time is irish,

and the 30 button C/G is supposedly "the standart instrument for Irish music".

However, 30 button is actually far too much for most of irish tunes where the only

needed accidental is the C#, and even many buttons on the main rows are useless.

 

I tried to figure out what could be the "minimum" instrument for Irish playing.

I'm not sure what the Noel Hill fingering is exactly, but it seems to me that only

10 buttons are required : 6 on the left, 4 on the right ("initiated" persons will confirm or correct).

So if such a great player uses so few buttons, and so many persons follow his method,

why not proposing a "minimum" instrument with only those buttons ?

This would allow many players to buy a good instrument at a significantly less price.

I know that Mr Tedrow is already proposing a 10-button "concertiny" but the button

arrangement is different. My proposition would be to respect the standart disposition,

allowing one to upgrade to a "full" instrument without having to relearn everything.

 

Of course, this proposition is a bit extreme. Let us be more generous. Keep all the 10 buttons

of the main rows on the left hand, useful for playing chords. On the right hand side, keep the

3 first buttons on each main row, plus the C# button. We end up with 17 buttons, and still

enough to play 95% of Irish session tunes.

 

I would be glad to know the opinion of good players and makers on this subject...

 

David

[Lawrence Reeves]

My first impression about answering this, is that it really doesn't save a large amount of money to make a lesser number of buttons. Let us assume that to make a traditional concertina you make a frame ( same for 20 to 44 key give or take an inch) a reed pan / sounding board ( again roughly same amount of time to cut and fit a slightly smaller board) Make or purchase reeds ( here would be a cost savings) make buttons, springs, and felts, pads, etc. ( again a slight material cost saving, but almost same time for labor), Bellows( 6 or 7 fold would be a constant bewtween 30 key and others), laquer and finish work ( buffing is buffing) Tuning would take a little less time, but still needs time.

Look at an Edgley 24 key. It is not a different standard of concertina than the 30 key, it is a slightly different note layout, but I think it is mainly a lighter instrument from my memory of playing one. Look at a 26 key Jeffries. It would sell for almost as much as the 30 or 38 keyed instrument.

Although I don't use all 30,or 38 keys on either of my concertinas I suspect the extra weight might add to some tonal properties. Now, that is just my opinion, not being a maker, nor repairer of concertinas.

[m3838]

If I remember correctly, the reason makers make instruments they make, is because they like it.

Aside from Chinese made Jackie/Jack/Rochelle there is no real urge from makers to save you money. General perception is that Concertinas, esp. the most expencive ones, are significantly underpriced as is. Top of the line Wheatstone goes for $10K, and top of the line Pigini accordion goes for $60K. And I wouldn't even mention top of the line violin or mandolin.

There are many ways to approach lowering the cost: ordering it in Australia and South Africa, moving production to Mozambique, changing the design, but the point is, these little instruments are made by affecionados, and low cost serial output is not on their agenda.

Besides, don't discard the fashion. There is no real reason for cyllindrical shape of a concertina aside from the fashion.

26-30 buttons deem looking good, sproadit assymmetric 17 would look ugly to many.

[david fabre]

26-30 buttons deem looking good, sproadit assymmetric 17 would look ugly to many.

You are probably right on this point.

 

Still, 24 or 26 button instruments, which already exist, would be enough for many people.

I didn't know that Mr Edgley was making 24 button ones. It's not listed on his web site,

I suppose it's special order. I would be interested to know the price.

[Dana Johnson]

I'm wondering why anglo makers only propose 30 buttons instruments, sometimes more,

but never less. Of course I'm not speaking about cheap Chinese or Italian 20 buttons

but about concertina-reeded ones or good hybrids.

 

One reason could be that the most popular style at the present time is irish,

and the 30 button C/G is supposedly "the standart instrument for Irish music".

However, 30 button is actually far too much for most of irish tunes where the only

needed accidental is the C#, and even many buttons on the main rows are useless.

 

I tried to figure out what could be the "minimum" instrument for Irish playing.

I'm not sure what the Noel Hill fingering is exactly, but it seems to me that only

10 buttons are required : 6 on the left, 4 on the right ("initiated" persons will confirm or correct).

So if such a great player uses so few buttons, and so many persons follow his method,

why not proposing a "minimum" instrument with only those buttons ?

Seems there are some misapprehensions here. Irish music involves a good number of different keys to play in. While the most common ones are G and D, there are many tunes in other keys and some areas of Ireland where most of the tunes are in other keys. I've been playing for a while now and find that even though I play Noel Hill's style / method, I use all the buttons. (so does he) It is true that the basic fingering Noel teaches involves a minimum of notes, but if you want to do any of the less basic stuff Noel does, you need a lot more than that. Noel teaches all the stuff he does. If you go to his classes for long enough you'll be needing those extra notes. What you can do on a standard 20 button is much more limited than what you can do on a 30 button, while the difference between a 30 and a 38 as far as capability is not nearly so large.

 

I designed a small concertina for my daughter with 23 buttons that has 4 note rows and is suited for learning Noel's style on. It still misses some important accompaniment notes, but by the time she needs them she'll have large enough hands to handle the 30 button. It is a lot more capable than a 20 button, but is nothing more than an instument for very small hands.

 

From a concertina maker's perspective, we tend to make what most people are asking for since in the long run that gets us as much work as we can handle. Wim Walker is one of the few people I know who is able to keep enough irons in the fire to really provide a wide range of instruments, and I haven't a clue how he does it. Practically speaking, the cost of a concertina body including reed pan buttons etc. is not where the major cost of the instrument is (at least in traditionally reeded concertinas) . For the Hybrids, the cost of the reeds while not insignificant, is much less, and the rest of the instrument is a larger portion of the effort / cost. But for concertina reeded instruments, Making the reeds is the majority of the work, and the difference between a 20 button and a 30 button is significant. (20 reeds ) At the moment, there are more than enough people wanting 30 button instruments rather than less expensive instruments with fewer buttons to keep everyone completely busy so there is no incentive to spend your time on an instrument that most players will quickly outgrow.

 

It is unfortunate that concertinas are relatively expensive instruments, but it is a measure of the work involved in making them. Most of the makers do try to do things as efficiently as possible and are working towards improving output. If we wanted to make a lot of money we wouldn't be making concertinas.

Dana

[Frank Edgley]

I am no longer making 24 button concertinas. The main reason is that most people did not want them. True, you can play most Irish music with significantly fewer buttons, but I think the general psychology may be that "more is better" or that a concertina with fewer buttons is somehow less of an instrument. Also, I think some customers thought that if they were ever to need to sell their instrument, a 30 button would be easier to sell---probably true. Why not make them for the few people who want them? As I have stated before, I get my metal grills precision cut by a laser. This enables me to make highly precise grills (much more accurately than hand cut ones) out of stainless (which should never discolour) with the saving passed on to the customer. My minimum order for the laser cut grills is 30 sets. I have never had even 30 enquiries about the 24 button instrument, so you can see that keeping large, costly amounts of inventory sitting around is not a practical thing to do. Sure, I could cut the grills by hand, but they would be more expensive, especially if hand cut from a hard material like stainless. The cost would go up, and customers on the waiting list would have to wait longer. This way the product is improved, although there is only one design available for the metal-ended concertinas. I could make a 24 button instrument with either of my wooden-ended designs, however, how much would it save the customer? It would save a small amount for the reeds, mecanisms, and tuning, but all the other costs would remain the same. Making an instrument with 80% of the reeds would not result in an instrument of 80% of the cost. I guess, if someone really wanted a 22, 24, 26, or 28 button instrument, with wood ends, I would make it.

[PaddyLosty]

26-30 buttons deem looking good, sproadit assymmetric 17 would look ugly to many.

You are probably right on this point.

 

Still, 24 or 26 button instruments, which already exist, would be enough for many people.

I didn't know that Mr Edgley was making 24 button ones. It's not listed on his web site,

I suppose it's special order. I would be interested to know the price.

 

 

I emailed Frank recently and he informed me that he is no longer making the 24 button. Does anyone remember how much they were?

 

-- Woops, I should read the whole thread before posting....

Edited October 12, 2007 by Pgidley

[mike averill]

My main instrument is a 38 key Jeffries C/G, and I use 37 of the keys regularly. My back up is a 22 key Lachenal C/G, the real basic one, and for most public sessions it covers the repetoire. Admitidly a low c# would be useful on the left , but can be avoided, likewise the g# on the right would be good, but for box sessions isnt used too much. I think 22 is probably a good minimum.

 

I use this box for practice alot too. It makes for good disapline and excercise. When ornaments work on this they are faultless on the Jeffries.

[mike averill]

... My minimum order for the laser cut grills is 30 sets.

 

If you look round the model engineering community and magazines I think you will find places that will laser cut ones offs given the digitised drawings.

[Hooves]

I'm wondering why anglo makers only propose 30 buttons instruments, sometimes more,

but never less. Of course I'm not speaking about cheap Chinese or Italian 20 buttons

but about concertina-reeded ones or good hybrids.

 

David

 

 

Aren't there already enough less-than-30 button boxes out there? Could we figure out how many 20 button boxes Lachanel, Wheastone, Jones, etc. cranked out?

 

Does it hurt to have buttons your not using? maybe, for example weight and overall size of box. Don't all those extra buttons give anglo players that chromatic edge we all want? (even though many players stick to 4 or 5 keys)

 

I see three wheeled cars once in a while, and they can get around town, but I bet alot of people would want 4 wheels even if technically they didn't really need them to drive to the local watering hole.

 

Personally, I would rather have more choices than less.

 

Heres my suggestion (again) I call it "Hoove's Tuning": Take your 20 button C/G, and tune the C's in the G row to C#: Brilliant you say? Oh ye concertina Gods, the best solutions are always the simplest.

[Takayuki YAGI]

I am no longer making 24 button concertinas.

 

Oh, really So 24 button I own may be the last one ?

Personally I like the button layout of your 24 button concertina, though I admit that many people play 26+ button (i.e. 3 row) instruments for Irish Music here, and demand for those is larger.

 

--

Taka

[David Levine]

I play the wooden flute as well as the concertina (I am the buyer of the Crabb Bb/F sold recently on Bay - I paid less for my first house!).

Regarding the issue of fewer buttons:

The longer I play the more I find myself using buttons I hadn't used before.

The discussion seems a lot like the one on wooden flute lists: why do you need the keys if you can play 90% of the tunes without keys?

The answer: as your playing develops you learn to explore the music and the instrument in greater depth.

[Frank Edgley]

"The answer: as your playing develops you learn to explore the music and the instrument in greater depth."

 

Reply:

I think that's the point and the reason so many people choose the 30 button over the 24, 26, 28 etc.----"just in case I might need them someday." Chances are, most people, at least those playing Irish music, won't ever needthem. Jacqueline McCarthy is a top Irish concertina player who gets along quite well with her 24 button instrument. At her level of playing, and with the music she chooses to play, she will never need them, as I suspect is the case with most "Irish" players. However, that being said the opposite appears to be true. Most Irish players prefer to play 30 button instruments over 38, or 45 button instruments. It's not always the case as those who just must play a Jeffries often cannot find a 30 button Jeffries, and so play one with more buttons, out of necessity.

[bill_mchale]

I think it is a shame that Frank is no longer making the 24 button instruments; does anyone know if Harold Herrington is still making them? In any case, if he is not, I am sure that Bob Tedrow would make one.

 

I think there are several reasons for the popularity of 30, 38 and 40 button concertinas. The first issue is that with the exception of Jacqueline McCarthy, 30 and 30+ button boxes are the rule amongst the top concertina players. A lot of people, myself included, want instruments as close as possible to those of our favorite players. The only reason I don't have a 38 button box is that none of the italian reeded boxes come with 38 buttons. Ultimately I decided that by the time my suttner is ready I will be pretty set in my playing style.

 

Here is the other thing, the more modern style players do make a lot of use of those extra buttons. They might not be necessary if you want to emulate the along the rows style of Chris Droney, but if you are going to want to use a lot of chords and other more complicated ornaments, the extra notes come in handy.

 

--

Bill

Edited October 15, 2007 by bill_mchale

[David Levine]

Take your 20 button C/G, and tune the C's in the G row to C#: Brilliant you say?

 

Not so brilliant say I. I'd hate to lose the C on a draw.

You're eliminating a pretty important choice- a smooth B-C-D on the draw.

[Hooves]

Take your 20 button C/G, and tune the C's in the G row to C#: Brilliant you say?

 

Not so brilliant say I. I'd hate to lose the C on a draw.

You're eliminating a pretty important choice- a smooth B-C-D on the draw.

 

 

Ah theres the rub, can you ever gain without losing?

 

you know the old saying "No pain no gain". But you can see my point:

 

one row of C,

one row of D,

a happy little Irishman you will be...

 

 

 

One of these days I'm going to write up a tune in D which never hits C# or F#. Pentatonic anybody? Dorian?

[m3838]

Well doctor, I have a nice 20 button C/G Lachenal, and that's all I can afford, and Rochelle is not to my liking - not well made, big and ugly, sound is so and so, not so nice to look at and hold...

And I want to play in D. But I also want smooth BCD both on push and draw.

Is there something wrong with me, doc?

I say, tuning up Cs is indeed brilliant.

And cheap!

[Robert Booth]

Given the discussion above, why don't we consider those "other" buttons as an invitation to widen the range of our musical choices? Surely even the most fanatical Irish player will, from time to time, want to attempt something outside that style, and examples abound of the wide varieties possible on a 30-b box.

 

Indeed, the question arises, how is it that the 20-b has survived, given the well known and much discussed limitations of that layout? One would think that an evolution of sorts would have kicked it into the backwaters of history; or are we seeing that right now? A while ago I asked how many folks were still playing their 20-b's and relatively few claimed to be using them regularly.

 

Just about every day I find some aspect of the concertina that had not been apparent to me before. I feel sure that someday I'll want one of those seemingly superfluous notes to make me happy