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Concer-shruti


Hooves

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Ok, so lets pretend we have a Duet style box:

 

Imagine a second bellows, that could be placed under arm or foot, that could be pumped to add additional air to the concertina.

 

I can see a couple variations:

 

1) Half Shruti - Ok, in this arrangement the concertina halves are seperated: the tina bellows only pumps air to the treble side of a duet, the bass side is fed via an auxiallary pump and is seperate pneumatically from the treble side. The treble side bellows is the entire concertina bellows (the bass side is sealed off internally).

 

This would allow you to play treble notes as standard, but now you never have to worry about the bass side stealign air. the compromise is you need to pump the other side with the other bellows. Add an additional air bag and I think it could allow continous playing.

 

2) Full Shruti - In this arrangement the concertina bellows doesn't provide air at all to the reeds, rather, the concertina bellows is used as a pump to fill an air bag like on bagpipes which is under the arm, so the air to the box is always fed via the bag. Probaly shouldn't call it "Full - Shruti" I just can't think of a catchy name at the moment.

 

3) Burst o'air - in this case, a standard box simply has an additional floor pedal or elbow pump to give the box a burst of air upon occaison. You can close the valve to make it play like a standard box. This one I think would be harder to work without damaging the valves, perhaps a release valve would be needed in the event of overpumping.

 

I think the half-shruti would work the best as it gives you the best of both worlds, not sure if the coordination would be there, but alot of people keep rhythm tapping thier feet, so it may work out. Valve issues would have to be addressed.

 

Your thoughts?

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Ok, so lets pretend we have a Duet style box:

 

Imagine a second bellows, that could be placed under arm or foot, that could be pumped to add additional air to the concertina.

 

I can see a couple variations:

 

. . .

 

Your thoughts?

Hi Hooves. Did you see my posting last April 1st, and hte long thread that followed, about dividing the bellows into left and right, with a rigidly supported (clamped between knees, maybe) divider between them? That would allow you to push one side while pulling the other -- give Anglo palyers a shot at DUet playing.

 

Seriously, while trying to break in my new-old-stock Bastari 67-key Hayden Bandoneon, I found myself wishing for a reed-organ style foot-pumped bellows, or even an electric blower, jsut to keep pressure on the reeds, since I seem to have to reverse the bellwos too often and the upper reeds don't speak well on low pressure. I coud feed the air in thru the center frame, then jam the endds against my knees to hold them in place against the steady wind pressure.

 

Back to you half-shruti idea, where the hands squeeze the treble side and the foot pumps the bass. That would work for the oom-pah (boom-chick) style that every aspiring Duetist claims to want to rise above (but we all play it now and then), but might not work as well for true "classic" duet work.

 

Let's see, if I can find an air mattress pump at a garage sale ... Mike K.

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Ok, so lets pretend we have a Duet style box:

 

Imagine a second bellows, that could be placed under arm or foot, that could be pumped to add additional air to the concertina.

 

I can see a couple variations:

 

. . .

 

Your thoughts?

Hi Hooves. Did you see my posting last April 1st, and hte long thread that followed, about dividing the bellows into left and right, with a rigidly supported (clamped between knees, maybe) divider between them? That would allow you to push one side while pulling the other -- give Anglo palyers a shot at DUet playing.

 

Seriously, while trying to break in my new-old-stock Bastari 67-key Hayden Bandoneon, I found myself wishing for a reed-organ style foot-pumped bellows, or even an electric blower, jsut to keep pressure on the reeds, since I seem to have to reverse the bellwos too often and the upper reeds don't speak well on low pressure. I coud feed the air in thru the center frame, then jam the endds against my knees to hold them in place against the steady wind pressure.

 

Back to you half-shruti idea, where the hands squeeze the treble side and the foot pumps the bass. That would work for the oom-pah (boom-chick) style that every aspiring Duetist claims to want to rise above (but we all play it now and then), but might not work as well for true "classic" duet work.

 

Let's see, if I can find an air mattress pump at a garage sale ... Mike K.

 

Yes, I think I do recall your concepts, the "B.A.D" concertina if I remember correctly. I was thinking more of ways to help the base side of a unisonoric duet concertina.

 

Did you ever do any work on it, or pursue the concept? (last I read your contemplating buidlig the halves intoa chair) I had suggested you simply strap each half to a seperate leg, that way you would not need the rigid support as your body would provide it (of course, you migth feel a bit foolish with two concertina bellows strapped to your legs!).

 

There was a thread about Shruti boxes and it seems like should be able to make at least 1 half shrutified, but then again I think most of us are tryign to break away from the drone. But a chorded drone, might not be so bad, as you said like a pump organ.

 

Really the problem I wanted to adress was that bass end, any chords and you just draw the life out of the other side.

 

I have a junky chinese english I would be willing to sacrafice for the sake of science. I will try to get a hold of a Uillean pipe bellows or similiar and see what sort of monstrosity I can come up with.

 

Thanks for your comments and reminder of the B.A.D.

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Imagine a second bellows, that could be placed under arm or foot, that could be pumped to add additional air to the concertina.

. . .

Your thoughts?

Did you see ... the long thread ... about dividing the bellows into left and right, with a rigidly supported (clamped between knees, maybe) divider between them? That would allow you to push one side while pulling the other -- give Anglo palyers a shot at DUet playing.

 

Seriously, while trying to break in my new-old-stock Bastari 67-key Hayden Bandoneon, I found myself wishing for a reed-organ style foot-pumped bellows, or even an electric blower, just to keep pressure on the reeds, since I seem to have to reverse the bellows too often and the upper reeds don't speak well on low pressure. I could feed the air in thru the center frame, then jam the ends against my knees to hold them in place against the steady wind pressure.

 

Back to you half-shruti idea, where the hands squeeze the treble side and the foot pumps the bass. That would work for the oom-pah (boom-chick) style that every aspiring Duetist claims to want to rise above (but we all play it now and then), but might not work as well for true "classic" duet work.

Personally, I think both Hooves' and ragtimer's are too complex. They remind me of the description of the uilleann pipes as "not an instrument, but a career". I think it would be difficult to either 1) use the hands to provide different pressures to the two sides of the instrument while somehow keeping the center immobile (even if externally braced), or 2) coordinate two different sources of pressure for a single chamber.

 

But keeping in the spirit (I hope), I'll propose an alternative: two bagpipe-style bags, one under each arm, and each supplying air to one end of the instrument. They could be kept inflated by separate foot pumps. Then there would no longer be a need for a bellows between the ends, and thus no concern over wearing it out, nor conflict between manipulating the bellows and moving the fingers.

Comments?

As for the big Bastaris, I get the impression that the real problem isn't the bellows, but the reeds. I don't have those problems with my 80-button Maccann, though I admit that it doesn't have double reeds. But I also don't remember such problems with Anne Gregson's Accordeophone, nor do I think they're common with Chemnitzers or Bandoneons in good condition. (Maybe Theordore K. can comment on that.)

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But keeping in the spirit (I hope), I'll propose an alternative: two bagpipe-style bags, one under each arm, and each supplying air to one end of the instrument. They could be kept inflated by separate foot pumps. Then there would no longer be a need for a bellows between the ends, and thus no concern over wearing it out, nor conflict between manipulating the bellows and moving the fingers.

Comments?

Sounds like a reed organ/harmonium, but with each foot separate to its side, plus reservoirs under the arms to keep that side sounding while yoru foot comes back up. Talk about a career -- might be as hard on the cerebellum to coordinate it as playing a pipe organ (where the original "foot bass", a giant PA, is a requirement).

 

Still, I wouldn't mind a foot pump to keep my Bastari under pressure (or vacuum).

As for the big Bastaris, I get the impression that the real problem isn't the bellows, but the reeds. I don't have those problems with my 80-button Maccann, though I admit that it doesn't have double reeds. But I also don't remember such problems with Anne Gregson's Accordeophone, nor do I think they're common with Chemnitzers or Bandoneons in good condition. (Maybe Theordore K. can comment on that.)

You are right about the Bastari 67. It's got a nice light action and beautifully built reed banks that are easy to work on, but the reeds in a couple of banks (button rows) are voiced for too high a wind pressure, and sometimes slow in starting. On the RH side, anyway.

 

When playing at less than full volume, on some notes the octave reed will speak before the unison reed, and on other notes the reverse. Makes for a choppy melody effect, so you end up just squeezing full force if you want to sound decent.

 

This is probably an intrinsic drawback of any double-reeded instrument -- an inability to play well softly. (Maybe in the $4000 hand-made accordions, the reed pairs are carefully voiced to speak together.) But again, I don't notice this so much on the LH side as on the RH, probably because I'm playing chords on LH and melody on RH, most of the time.

 

I'm hoping the reeds will "play in", or maybe an expert could adjust the "set" of the reeds for faster speech and/or more volume, tho I understand these two demands are traded off against each other.

--Mike K.

Edited by ragtimer
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But keeping in the spirit (I hope), I'll propose an alternative: two bagpipe-style bags, one under each arm, and each supplying air to one end of the instrument. They could be kept inflated by separate foot pumps. Then there would no longer be a need for a bellows between the ends, and thus no concern over wearing it out, nor conflict between manipulating the bellows and moving the fingers.

Comments?

Sounds like a reed organ/harmonium, but with each foot separate to its side, plus reservoirs under the arms to keep that side sounding while yoru foot comes back up. Talk about a career -- might be as hard on the cerebellum to coordinate it as playing a pipe organ (where the original "foot bass", a giant PA, is a requirement).

 

Still, I wouldn't mind a foot pump to keep my Bastari under pressure (or vacuum).

As for the big Bastaris, I get the impression that the real problem isn't the bellows, but the reeds. I don't have those problems with my 80-button Maccann, though I admit that it doesn't have double reeds. But I also don't remember such problems with Anne Gregson's Accordeophone, nor do I think they're common with Chemnitzers or Bandoneons in good condition. (Maybe Theordore K. can comment on that.)

You are right about the Bastari 67. It's got a nice light action and beautifully built reed banks that are easy to work on, but the reeds in a couple of banks (button rows) are voiced for too high a wind pressure, and sometimes slow in starting. On the RH side, anyway.

 

When playing at less than full volume, on some notes the octave reed will speak before the unison reed, and on other notes the reverse. Makes for a choppy melody effect, so you end up just squeezing full force if you want to sound decent.

 

This is probably an intrinsic drawback of any double-reeded instrument -- an inability to play well softly. (Maybe in the $4000 hand-made accordions, the reed pairs are carefully voiced to speak together.) But again, I don't notice this so much on the LH side as on the RH, probably because I'm playing chords on LH and melody on RH, most of the time.

 

I'm hoping the reeds will "play in", or maybe an expert could adjust the "set" of the reeds for faster speech and/or more volume, tho I understand these two demands are traded off against each other.

--Mike K.

 

 

Yes, I decided it was all going round in circles. I'm focuisng on a different project now that is much more realistic and far easier to implement: a pedal bass.

 

As for playing, I have found on my Crane that the lowest ocatve is the big problem, the notes are rather slow to respond and chords voiced low dominate and take most of the air, so, I'm actaully working on using the bass end more for basslines and melody and the other end for melody/chording. This is why I'm again looking at the pedal bass.

 

I find that I can get a way with just a root-fifth for accompiament as the the melody can then hit the third without worry of conflict.

 

I don't believe the orginal intent of the duets was to chord on one side and melody on the other, rather, the idea was to play two lines simultaenously, which is what I'm endeavoring to do.

 

However, my interests change frequently, I looked around over the weekend for a MIDI pedal bass, and several companies make or have made them in the past. I may still try my hand at a pedal bass that uses reeds, but I'm tempted to say this is one case where I might really want MIDI (or an analog synth) instead of reeds or complementary to them.

 

Being able to trigger some effetcs/sounds might be cool in performance, as well as being able to use the pedal bass to accompany my guitar and octave mandolin.

 

Actually, I think a shruti-box or pedal bass that uses bag pipe drones would be very cool!

 

I'm for now done with goofing around with concertina ideas, I like mine pretty much as it is, though I may still look into baffles.

Edited by Hooves
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Still, I wouldn't mind a foot pump to keep my Bastari under pressure (or vacuum).

 

Looks like instead of additional bellows (the bigger the bellows, the lower the pressure per arm force, remember), I'd investigate reed replacements.

If only high reeds give you the trouble, why not order some good quality reeds and see, if it's possible to fit them into existing banks. Or perhabs, by slight sanding of the sides, make them fit. Or perhabs replace all the reeds with some inexpencive, but reasonable ones. I'd also see, if replacing the bellows will make sense. $300 for new set may not be bad. If not, perhabs some ebay junk bandoneon/chemnitzer will come in close dimentions, so the bellows could be re-cycled.

If the action is good - it's half the instrument. Make another half good - and skim the waves of life.

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Still, I wouldn't mind a foot pump to keep my Bastari under pressure (or vacuum).

 

Looks like instead of additional bellows (the bigger the bellows, the lower the pressure per arm force, remember), I'd investigate reed replacements.

If only high reeds give you the trouble, why not order some good quality reeds and see, if it's possible to fit them into existing banks. Or perhabs, by slight sanding of the sides, make them fit. Or perhabs replace all the reeds with some inexpencive, but reasonable ones. I'd also see, if replacing the bellows will make sense. $300 for new set may not be bad. If not, perhabs some ebay junk bandoneon/chemnitzer will come in close dimentions, so the bellows could be re-cycled.

If the action is good - it's half the instrument. Make another half good - and skim the waves of life.

Thanks for the ideas.

Actually, tonight I found that the problem is at least partly due to the pads in one row of buttons and reeds, not lifting high enough. I think the one weak row of notes is being starved for wind. When I removed that bank of reeds to check it out, and blew on the red cells by mouth, the sound was full and strong. Only in the instrument is it weak.

 

The 4th (higher pitched) row actually sounds stronger than the 3rd, and, sure enough, its pads lift a lot higher. So now I may try tinkering with the action to get more button travel and hence pad lift. As the felt strip under the buttons wears in, the travel will increase naturally, an extra part of "playing in."

 

Also, I thinik some sound gets lost in the right-hand box end. Now I appreciate why some bandoneons and chemnitzers have those tacky-looking round brass-lined holes to let the tone out!

 

On the original thread topic -- last Friday I saw The Bttlefield Band, the neo-Scottish group, for the 3rd or 4th time right here in Bath, ME, USA. During one number, the piper palyed the "small pipes" (which must be related to the Uillean pipes?). He strapped a small bellows pump under one armpit (or over one kidney), much like a tiny accordion, and then used that to blow the pipes. Could hardly hear it, but his pumping action was nearly invisible -- not at all like the one-winged Chicken Dance that I expected.

 

For concertina use, I'd go with a foot pump.

--Mike K.

Edited by ragtimer
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On the original thread topic -- last Friday I saw The Bttlefield Band, the neo-Scottish group, for the 3rd or 4th time right here in Bath, ME, USA. During one number, the piper palyed the "small pipes" (which must be related to the Uillean pipes?). He strapped a small bellows pump under one armpit (or over one kidney), much like a tiny accordion, and then used that to blow the pipes. Could hardly hear it, but his pumping action was nearly invisible -- not at all like the one-winged Chicken Dance that I expected.

 

Most likely they were Scottish Smallpipes which are a distinct variety of bagpipe. Bellows blown as you observed, but with an unkeyed chanter and much simpler drones that Uillean pipes. They are only related to the latter in that they are bellows blown. Northumbrian pipes are bellows blown too and often referred to in north east England simply as "smallpipes" so that's another possibility.

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On the original thread topic -- last Friday I saw The Bttlefield Band, the neo-Scottish group, for the 3rd or 4th time right here in Bath, ME, USA. During one number, the piper palyed the "small pipes" (which must be related to the Uillean pipes?). He strapped a small bellows pump under one armpit (or over one kidney), much like a tiny accordion, and then used that to blow the pipes. Could hardly hear it, but his pumping action was nearly invisible -- not at all like the one-winged Chicken Dance that I expected.
Most likely they were Scottish Smallpipes which are a distinct variety of bagpipe. Bellows blown as you observed, but with an unkeyed chanter and much simpler drones that Uillean pipes. They are only related to the latter in that they are bellows blown. Northumbrian pipes are bellows blown too and often referred to in north east England simply as "smallpipes" so that's another possibility.

Whether the smallpipes were Northumbrian or Scottish, I believe that their only relation to the uillean pipes is a distant common ancestor. Neither was derived from the other. There are also bellows blown bagpipes in several other cultures, but the ones I've seen don't look much like either the Scottish or Northumbrian.

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Whether the smallpipes were Northumbrian or Scottish, I believe that their only relation to the uillean pipes is a distant common ancestor.

Are the Uillean pipes Irish?

I've heard that Irish bagpipes are "more musical" than the Scots Highland variety (which are still among my favorite instruments). --Mike K.

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Whether the smallpipes were Northumbrian or Scottish, I believe that their only relation to the uillean pipes is a distant common ancestor.

Are the Uillean pipes Irish?

Irish, and nothing else.

 

I've heard that Irish bagpipes are "more musical" than the Scots Highland variety (which are still among my favorite instruments).

Sounds as if you don't really know what they are. The uillean pipes are far more complex than the highland pipes (also known as the "war pipes"). Among the many descriptions of the uillean pipes is, "They are the church organ of bagpipes."

 

There is also an Irish tradition of playing the war pipes, but compared to the uillean pipes, it appears quite limited.

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