G/d Rochelle

[JimLucas]

Daniel Hersh started thisTopic, suggesting that folks interested in purchasing a G/D Rochelle contact Wim and let him know. I figure that a quicker, though less definite way to judge potential interest is to start a poll. Wim says he needs a minimum of 60 orders. If there are only 20 positive responses, then that's probably not enough. 60 positives here probably would be enough, because although they aren't firm commitments, there are almost certainly others who will place orders but not participate in the poll.

 

I've included a "more than one" option, potentially for folks like Morse and Tedrow. It doesn't record how many more, but anybody with that intent would be contacting Wim directly with the details.

 

I think it's reasonable to assume that the G/D Rochelle would have the same price as the current C/G.

 

Note that if you would buy one as a gift for someone else, that counts.

[Dan 04617]

A Rochelle? No I don't think so. Rochelles are a beginners instrument (although a high quality one by their reputation here) and I've really had enough of that.

 

Now a Clover... That's a different issue. From the sound of it, if I hadn't a) already ordered a G/D Ceili, and b ) didn't have a bias toward more local products and generally against Chinese products when avoidable, then I'd be at least curious about the Clover in G/D.

 

 

On 21 August, Wim said:

Actually…. We’re just about to start the production of the ‘Clover’, which is a new hybrid 30 key anglo.

The Clover is comparable to the other hybrid instruments available, and has hand made Antonelli reeds, low resistance valves, high quality woods (no multiplex, MDF or HDF), traditional brass fittings and metal domed keys (nylon core with metal sleeve). The instrument will have our double guided brass action (as used in our MIDI models). Design, size and weight are all comparable to our Phoenix anglo which is a copy of the Wheatstone Linota. The difference is: Phoenix = vintage concertina reeds, Clover = accordion reeds

 

Just to avoid wrong assumptions/misunderstandings: I will NOT be making this instrument myself.

The Clover will be hand made at “our new shop” in China which is especially set up for this instrument, and its english counterpart (available 2008). I am responsible for the instrument’s design (own the exclusive rights), and the necessary manufacturing instruction/tools, etc., but the shop will be run by my Chinese partner. The small team of workers are all professionals, recruited from the accordion industry. The key parts of the instrument will be exported from Europe. The Clover will of course be part of our trade in program.

Edited August 28, 2007 by Dan 04617

[Daniel Hersh]

The poll is definitely worthwhile to get a quick count that everyone can see. Let me add, though, that the idea of having people e-mail Wim was his request, not mine. His e-address for those who want to write is info@concertinaconnection.com .

 

Daniel

Daniel Hersh started thisTopic, suggesting that folks interested in purchasing a G/D Rochelle contact Wim and let him know. I figure that a quicker, though less definite way to judge potential interest is to start a poll. Wim says he needs a minimum of 60 orders. If there are only 20 positive responses, then that's probably not enough. 60 positives here probably would be enough, because although they aren't firm commitments, there are almost certainly others who will place orders but not participate in the poll.

 

I've included a "more than one" option, potentially for folks like Morse and Tedrow. It doesn't record how many more, but anybody with that intent would be contacting Wim directly with the details.

 

I think it's reasonable to assume that the G/D Rochelle would have the same price as the current C/G.

 

Note that if you would buy one as a gift for someone else, that counts.

[Woody]

A Rochelle? No I don't think so. Rochelles are a beginners instrument (although a high quality one by their reputation here) and I've really had enough of that.

 

Now a Clover... That's a different issue.

As a Rochelle owner who has moved on to a G/D hybrid I agree with this. My experience is that, though having a G/D option would have been nice as a beginner, in fact it made little impact - especially as the courses I've attended have understandably been targeted mainly at C/G players, however the move to a better instrument has proved (financially) painful and having an affordable next step in G/D is IMHO much more important.

[JimLucas]

The poll is definitely worthwhile to get a quick count that everyone can see. Let me add, though, that the idea of having people e-mail Wim was his request, not mine.

Right. Sorry if anyone got the impression that I intended the poll to substitute for sending emails to Wim. Definitely not. The poll should be in addition.

 

Reasons for having the poll include the fact that it's possible for all of us (not just Wim) to see the extent of the interest (at least as expressed in the poll). And I hope it might even stimulate interest a bit.

[JimLucas]

A Rochelle? No I don't think so. Rochelles are a beginners instrument (although a high quality one by their reputation here) and I've really had enough of that.

 

Now a Clover... That's a different issue.

As a Rochelle owner who has moved on to a G/D hybrid I agree with this.

There are various possible reasons for even a non-beginner to want a Rochelle. E.g., it could be the instrument one would be willing to take out in the rain. For others (myself, for instance), an instrument to loan to someone who wants to find out if the anglo is right for them.

 

My experience is that, though having a G/D option would have been nice as a beginner, in fact it made little impact - especially as the courses I've attended have understandably been targeted mainly at C/G players,...

It's a vicious circle: Teaching centers on C/G, because that's what most folks have, but then folks get C/G's in order to be able to be able to learn from teaching centered on C/G. But quite a few of the members here on Concertina.net play "English style" and prefer the G/D for English music, so I for one am hoping to see a synergy between increased availability of G/D instruments and teaching aimed at the G/D.

 

...however the move to a better instrument has proved (financially) painful and having an affordable next step in G/D is IMHO much more important.

I disagree. The importance of having G/D's in the next price range suffers, because of the lack of a Rochelle G/D. What's needed is an introductory-level G/D (i.e., the Rochelle), so that those who want to learn to play in a G/D-oriented style can do so as beginners and so won't need to go through a painful relearning process when they graduate from their first instrument to a better one.

[m3838]

A Rochelle? No I don't think so. Rochelles are a beginners instrument (although a high quality one by their reputation here) and I've really had enough of that.

 

Now a Clover... That's a different issue.

As a Rochelle owner who has moved on to a G/D hybrid I agree with this.

There are various possible reasons for even a non-beginner to want a Rochelle. E.g., it could be the instrument one would be willing to take out in the rain. For others (myself, for instance), an instrument to loan to someone who wants to find out if the anglo is right for them.

 

My experience is that, though having a G/D option would have been nice as a beginner, in fact it made little impact - especially as the courses I've attended have understandably been targeted mainly at C/G players,...

It's a vicious circle: Teaching centers on C/G, because that's what most folks have, but then folks get C/G's in order to be able to be able to learn from teaching centered on C/G. But quite a few of the members here on Concertina.net play "English style" and prefer the G/D for English music, so I for one am hoping to see a synergy between increased availability of G/D instruments and teaching aimed at the G/D.

 

...however the move to a better instrument has proved (financially) painful and having an affordable next step in G/D is IMHO much more important.

I disagree. The importance of having G/D's in the next price range suffers, because of the lack of a Rochelle G/D. What's needed is an introductory-level G/D (i.e., the Rochelle), so that those who want to learn to play in a G/D-oriented style can do so as beginners and so won't need to go through a painful relearning process when they graduate from their first instrument to a better one.

 

 

Only on condition that lower pitched Concertina will not be slow. As Jack suggests, the low notes on G/D Rochelle may not be friendly in push/pull style.

So unless it's taken care of...

[Daniel Hersh]

A year or I two ago I would have jumped at this, and I still might. I had played C/G for 20+ years and was starting to think that I might prefer a G/D. I started looking for an inexpensive G/D to try out as an experiment. I wound up with a 20-button German one, then moved up to a pretty good 20-button Lachenal...but even those weren't easy to find, and they of course only have 20 buttons. I would imagine that there are others out there who are in the same position that I was in. And responding to Woody, there are many self-taught players who learn by ear who could manage without the workshops and instruction that are focused on the C/G.

 

I guess we'll just have to see whether there's enough interest out there to make this happen.

 

A Rochelle? No I don't think so. Rochelles are a beginners instrument (although a high quality one by their reputation here) and I've really had enough of that.

 

Now a Clover... That's a different issue.

As a Rochelle owner who has moved on to a G/D hybrid I agree with this.

There are various possible reasons for even a non-beginner to want a Rochelle. E.g., it could be the instrument one would be willing to take out in the rain. For others (myself, for instance), an instrument to loan to someone who wants to find out if the anglo is right for them.

My experience is that, though having a G/D option would have been nice as a beginner, in fact it made little impact - especially as the courses I've attended have understandably been targeted mainly at C/G players,...

It's a vicious circle: Teaching centers on C/G, because that's what most folks have, but then folks get C/G's in order to be able to be able to learn from teaching centered on C/G. But quite a few of the members here on Concertina.net play "English style" and prefer the G/D for English music, so I for one am hoping to see a synergy between increased availability of G/D instruments and teaching aimed at the G/D.

...however the move to a better instrument has proved (financially) painful and having an affordable next step in G/D is IMHO much more important.

I disagree. The importance of having G/D's in the next price range suffers, because of the lack of a Rochelle G/D. What's needed is an introductory-level G/D (i.e., the Rochelle), so that those who want to learn to play in a G/D-oriented style can do so as beginners and so won't need to go through a painful relearning process when they graduate from their first instrument to a better one.

Edited August 29, 2007 by Daniel Hersh

[Mikefule]

i did buy a C/G Rochelle. I would have bought a G/D if it had been available. The moment has now passed because I have a G/D box.

[Chris Timson]

I disagree. The importance of having G/D's in the next price range suffers, because of the lack of a Rochelle G/D. What's needed is an introductory-level G/D (i.e., the Rochelle), so that those who want to learn to play in a G/D-oriented style can do so as beginners and so won't need to go through a painful relearning process when they graduate from their first instrument to a better one.

I think this is right.

 

If one becomes available I shall buy one and I shall email Wim to this effect. The reason is to have a G/D to loan to people. I have a nice little Jones 26 button G/D that I have used quite a lot for this purpose, but by doing so I can't play it myself, and I'm quite fond of its sweetness of tone. Loaning G/Ds to people really works as a way of spreading the addiction (heh heh). At Rochelle prices it isn't too expensive a thing to do, and I like to commend the idea to other people on the list who can afford it.

 

Chris

 

Edited to add PS: it doesn't have to be a G/D of course. It could be a C/G or even a Jackie, but in England I'd start with a G/D.

Edited August 29, 2007 by Chris Timson

[Woody]

What's needed is an introductory-level G/D (i.e., the Rochelle), so that those who want to learn to play in a G/D-oriented style can do so as beginners and so won't need to go through a painful relearning process when they graduate from their first instrument to a better one.

Oviously the more varieties the better but I'd just like to say that I knew I was going to be playing a G/D long term so I just learnt tunes on the C/G box transposed to keys of C & G from G & D. It's very easy if you're not playing with other people, you just pretend you're playing a G/D . Hence when I picked up the G/D there was no painful re-learning process - the same buttons were being pushed and I could play my repertoire straight away. If there had been a decent hybrid G/D at a more affordable price I could have made the transition earlier.

Edited August 31, 2007 by Woody

[JimLucas]

Two weeks later, the response hasn't exactly been an avalanche: Only 32 responses, and half of them negative.

 

For the sake of those who do want to see a G/D Rochelle, I hope Wim is getting more emails than that.

[stuart estell]

Likewise, Jim.

 

I voted for the "yes, but not in the next six months" option; it's a great idea, and it'd be nice to have a cheap-but-playable box that I could almost not care about in hostile conditions... but I probably wouldn't think about it till next summer.

[CaryK]

Here's a dumb question, but since I don't know the answer, here goes. It was referred to earlier in this topic that G/D anglo concertinas are better suited than C/G anglos for playing in the "english" style. Why is that?

[Woody]

Here's a dumb question, but since I don't know the answer, here goes. It was referred to earlier in this topic that G/D anglo concertinas are better suited than C/G anglos for playing in the "english" style. Why is that?

It's only a dumb question if you ask it while already knowing the answer.

 

"English" tunes tend to be played in the keys of G and D (I think because of the prevalence of Melodeons in these keys). With a G/D Anglo it works out that for most "English" tunes you can easily play most of the tune on the right hand side of the box while accompanying chords are played on the left hand side. This is not to say that you can't do this on a C/G, indeed there are celebrated players who play "English" style in the keys of G & D on a C/G Anglo (especially boxes with extra buttons), but it is more straight-forward on a G/D.

 

There is also a side issue that playing in G on the right-hand side of a C/G box you tend to be going to the higher notes of the instrument which are not favoured by a lot of people (though it's popular with dogs & bats!) and tends to be a thinner though very bright sound. With a G/D instrument being that bit lower, the notes you are playing sound to many (me included) a lot richer, though lacking some of the brightness.

Edited September 11, 2007 by Woody

[Chris Timson]

"English" tunes tend to be played in the keys of G and D (I think because of the prevalence of Melodeons in these keys).

It's the other way round, in fact. D/G melodeons have only been around in any quantity for about 50 years. Here is the story as told by Stephen Chambers:-

Some years ago I asked Peter Kennedy to relate the story of the introduction of D/G melodeons into England as his name always seems to come up.He said something like:In the 1950s most melodeons were based in C with either F or G as a second row and the half row, often in the club format, to give more chromaticity. He was collecting songs and tunes in Northumberland and found strangely that much of the repertoire played by fiddlers in particular was of Irish origin and in G or D and sometimes A. He investigated and found that an anomolous reception of Radio Eirrean (sp) occurred in the NE and local players were picking up Irish tunes for their repertoire from the radio.

 

Now Irish melodeon players had adopted chromatic instruments based on C with either B or C# as a second row to enable them to play in other keys but this was not generally popular in England and the local melodeon players couldn't join in with this repertoire. So to help local melodeon players Peter arranged for Hohner to produce a batch of melodeons in G/D, I believe that they were stocked and distributed by Bells of Surbiton and the EFDSS shop.

The truth is that the choice of keys in English (and I believe Irish music as well) is determined by the fact that D and G are easy keys for fiddlers. I personally believe that the various English styles have been profoundly influenced by fiddlers from the word go. For instance the staccato "rumpty" style of play comes from the fact that Southern English fiddlers in particular use far fewer slurs than their celtic counterparts, and go in for strong bow strokes frequently just one per note. I think that D/G melodeons and G/D anglos have become popular because they fit the music so well, rather than the other way round.

 

A bit off topic, but hey ...

 

Chris

[Woody]

A bit off topic, but hey ...

Chris, for this forum that's exceptionally ON topic

 

That's very interesting - I didn't realize that D/G Melodeons were such a recent arrival.

[CaryK]

Thanks for the history regarding G/D anglos and melodeons. I like the anecdote about the anomalous radio reception (relatively modern means of communication/entertainment) promoting the spread of an Irish repertoire (relatively Traditional means of communication/entertainment). This example sounds like a good ethnomusicology dissertation waiting for some ambitious graduate student to tackle and quantify.