seanc Posted August 20, 2007 Share Posted August 20, 2007 This has probably been beaten to death already, so I will apologize in advance. How much of a difference is there between the Rochelle/ Jackie and the other "name brand" (forgot who markets them) versus the Chinese models that seem so prevalent on ebay? I remember the thread that Wakker had said that these are made in China under his supervision and to his specs. But, that being said, are the ones on ebay coming out of the same factories using all of the same stuff, basically Wakker over runs? Same instrument with a different name? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikefule Posted August 20, 2007 Share Posted August 20, 2007 There are very few stupid questions, only impatient answers. I had a Rochelle for a few months and quickly decided I wanted an upgrade. I upgraded to a Marcus at 5 times the price, and don't regret it. However, that is not to knock the Rochelle because it was good enough to hook my interest, and I kept forgetting to put it down and cook my dinner. Compared to a "proper" concertina, it is clunky, slow and physically unattractive. However, it is good value for money. I wouldn't spend less, and I don't think you'd get better for 50% more money. Mine was picked up and played by several experienced players who all expressed surprise at how good it was "for its price", and who were all able to squeeze some convincing music out of it. I made similar inquiries in this forum before buying, and the consensus then was that the Rochelle is head and shoulders above anything in the same price bracket and an excellent starter box. I doubt that opinion will have changed over the last few months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seanc Posted August 20, 2007 Author Share Posted August 20, 2007 I actually have a Rochelle, and like it very much. I have been at it for a couple of months and am looking to upgrade, probably to a Tedrow or a Morse. I was just looking at the Ebay cheapies, specifically the ECs and at least from Exterior appearances they look remarkably similar to the Rochelle and for that matter the ones from hobgoblin. I guess the question is are they the same? Are the Rochelle and the Hobgoblin branded models of these and are there any differences either internally or externally. Working in the computer field I see quite often the same box roll off an assembly line in China or Singapore that get labeled as some of the big brand names. All claim that theirs is their own and that they are better than the others, but many times they have all rolled off the same assembly line. I am not at all trying to diminish the Rochelle ( I do have one and like it very much) and truth be told it is a heck of a lot better instrument than i am a player. Pretty much like guns here, they all shoot way better than I can ever hope to but I still like Perrazzi and Steyr. Even if it is just a question of warranty and service. I believe that Wim Wakker will stand behind his product and the upgrade plan IS a great testament to that. Maybe it is just out of intellectual curiosity that I ask. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted August 20, 2007 Share Posted August 20, 2007 (edited) This has probably been beaten to death already, so I will apologize in advance. How much of a difference is there between the Rochelle/ Jackie and the other "name brand" (forgot who markets them) versus the Chinese models that seem so prevalent on ebay? I remember the thread that Wakker had said that these are made in China under his supervision and to his specs. But, that being said, are the ones on ebay coming out of the same factories using all of the same stuff, basically Wakker over runs? Same instrument with a different name? Well - I've had both.... A Rochelle and a Stephanelli (The Stephanelli is a branded Chinese cheapie imported by Steve Clinkscale Music who have extra quality control checks to get the best of the bunch. These seem to be among the most consistent of the cheap Chinese boxes). The Rochelle is so much better that there's no contest. Button action, sound, bellows, straps, button positions, comfort, reliability and even appearance - the Rochelle is dramatically better in all areas. The only thing the Stephanelli won on is that is came with a cheap, but serviceable hard case which far out performs the soft case of the Rochelle - but then the Rochelle comes with a beginners tutor book. There is also an issue with the cheap Chinese boxes in that the G row buttons are uncomfortably close to the hand-rest meaning that, for anybody with larger hands, prolonged playing on the G row can make your hands ache or cramp - not the best! As for any suggestion that the Ebay Chinese boxes might be the same as the Wakker boxes, think again. Of the ones I've seen listed none look the same as the Wakker boxes if you look at the details (especially look at the strap and strap retaining screw, body shape, button size & position, and number of bellows folds). A closer inspection of the button mechanism shows that the Wakker box is a very superior beastie. The Rochelle got a good amount of use from me until my Norman G/D arrived. I'll be keeping it for use on courses where a C/G Anglo is expected, for taking away on holidays abroad, and as my spare should the Norman need a trip to the doctors at any time. Edited August 21, 2007 by Woody Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Dunk Posted August 20, 2007 Share Posted August 20, 2007 Thanks for clearing that up Woody, I'd looked at the Stephanelli boxes on the net several times and wondered if the Chinese had ripped off the Rochelle and were selling it cheaper elsewhere with a different badge. If only Wim Wakker would settle down and create an intermediate design costing around £450-£500. That would knock Staggi for six and create a really playable instrument that would serve new players well through the first two or three years of real progress before they needed to think about upgrading. This is probably more of an issue with the English models which have such a limited range, it took me just three months to run out of notes at the top end. The r/h top G# is available as a l/h Ab but learning alternative (and distinctly odd) fingerings doesn't seem to be the way to go..... I suppose he only has a limited amount of time to spend on design, coupled with the fact that there comes a point where the next level of improvement becomes disproportionately expensive. But we can dream, eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Timson Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 I am not at all trying to diminish the Rochelle ( I do have one and like it very much) and truth be told it is a heck of a lot better instrument than i am a player. Pretty much like guns here, they all shoot way better than I can ever hope to but I still like Perrazzi and Steyr. Um ... sometimes you hit a statement like this that reminds you just how different societies can be. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yankeeclipper Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 Vive la difference! But anyone who can afford a Perazzi should have a Dipper as well... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wim wakker Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 If only Wim Wakker would settle down and create an intermediate design costing around £450-£500. Actually…. We’re just about to start the production of the ‘Clover’, which is a new hybrid 30 key anglo. The Clover is comparable to the other hybrid instruments available, and has hand made Antonelli reeds, low resistance valves, high quality woods (no multiplex, MDF or HDF), traditional brass fittings and metal domed keys (nylon core with metal sleeve). The instrument will have our double guided brass action (as used in our MIDI models). Design, size and weight are all comparable to our Phoenix anglo which is a copy of the Wheatstone Linota. The difference is: Phoenix = vintage concertina reeds, Clover = accordion reeds Just to avoid wrong assumptions/misunderstandings: I will NOT be making this instrument myself. The Clover will be hand made at “our new shop” in China which is especially set up for this instrument, and its english counterpart (available 2008). I am responsible for the instrument’s design (own the exclusive rights), and the necessary manufacturing instruction/tools, etc., but the shop will be run by my Chinese partner. The small team of workers are all professionals, recruited from the accordion industry. The key parts of the instrument will be exported from Europe. The Clover will of course be part of our trade in program. Regarding the price…it will be very, very reasonable ... Finally, about ‘our’ Rochelle, There is quite a lot of difference between the cheap clones and the Rochelle. The Rochelle is a European concertina (designed and owned by me), made exclusively for us in China, to my specifications/standards, using some European parts. We even have our own quality controller in the factory, which by the way, is not the same as the Clover shop. The Rochelle/Jackie/Jack are the only European concertinas that are made in China. The other concertinas are Chinese instruments; designed/copied, developed, made and marketed by Chinese companies. When in doubt if you have a Rochelle or clone, just open the instrument and compare the action, reeds, valves, etc… Wim Wakker Concertina Connection v.o.f. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Dunk Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 The Clover will be hand made at “our new shop” in China which is especially set up for this instrument, and its english counterpart (available 2008). Hello Wim, good to hear you are heading for the mid priced market in a big way; how many keys will the new English model have, and will it be available as a baritone too (I love my Jack! )? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Timson Posted August 22, 2007 Share Posted August 22, 2007 Good news indeed. Any chance of a G/D Clover? Thanks also for the confirmation that the boxes that look like Rochelles aren't Rochelles. Must be a mark of success that you have attracted the attention of the cloners! Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wim wakker Posted August 22, 2007 Share Posted August 22, 2007 Hello Wim, good to hear you are heading for the mid priced market in a big way; how many keys will the new English model have, and will it be available as a baritone too (I love my Jack! )? The english model will have 40+ keys. It depends on the reduced frame sizes I can get. At this moment I favour size over the top notes as long as it is more than 40. We plan to offer both C/G and G/D anglos as well as treble and baritone englishes. Wim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seanc Posted August 22, 2007 Author Share Posted August 22, 2007 but but but but but.. It's only a tm1, that i got used at that!!!! and that being said.. I have been shooting far longer than i have been err.. concertina-ing.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted August 22, 2007 Share Posted August 22, 2007 I have been shooting far longer than i have been err.. concertina-ing.. Well, at least with the concertina you didn't have to start from scratch... since proper trigger technique is to squeeze, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paperpunchr Posted August 23, 2007 Share Posted August 23, 2007 I actually have a Rochelle, and like it very much. I have been at it for a couple of months and am looking to upgrade, probably to a Tedrow or a Morse. I was just looking at the Ebay cheapies, specifically the ECs and at least from Exterior appearances they look remarkably similar to the Rochelle and for that matter the ones from hobgoblin. I guess the question is are they the same? Are the Rochelle and the Hobgoblin branded models of these and are there any differences either internally or externally. Working in the computer field I see quite often the same box roll off an assembly line in China or Singapore that get labeled as some of the big brand names. All claim that theirs is their own and that they are better than the others, but many times they have all rolled off the same assembly line. I am not at all trying to diminish the Rochelle ( I do have one and like it very much) and truth be told it is a heck of a lot better instrument than i am a player. Pretty much like guns here, they all shoot way better than I can ever hope to but I still like Perrazzi and Steyr. Even if it is just a question of warranty and service. I believe that Wim Wakker will stand behind his product and the upgrade plan IS a great testament to that. Maybe it is just out of intellectual curiosity that I ask. I have one of the $125 look-alikes, and while it plays surprisingly well for the money, the mechanism is nothing like a Rochelle, which is to say nowhere near as good a feel. The action is a single aluminum sturcture with one or two pins that run the length of the structure and all the arms in a row pivot on that one pin...disassembly would be a nightmare as you can't undo one without undoing the whole row. Buttons occasionally stick, and the breather hole was the same size as all the tone holes...which is to say way too small...the concertina is black and my standing joke is, it's the Darth Vader signature model, as it used to wheeze through that tiny breather hole, taking forever to let air in or out. I cut a bigger hole and put a bigger pad on it, and it's more functional. Buttons do occasionally stick as they have no means of keeping vertical alignment except the hole in the end plate they pass through and the lever arm below that they slide on. If I had it to do over again I'd buy a Rochelle. Still, the super-cheapie was good enough to convince me that I could learn the anglo, and better for my hands than the English...bought a cheapie of that system too, to help me decide Anglo vs English. Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paperpunchr Posted August 23, 2007 Share Posted August 23, 2007 We plan to offer both C/G and G/D anglos as well as treble and baritone englishes. Wim Now There's some good news, good enough to make me hold off moving up so's I can see what a G/D would really be like to play, for the kind of music I do. Still, Wim, I think a Rochelle in G/D would sell well enough to be worth the little investment (different reeds/reed turrets) it would take. I suspect you know your own business but I know a lot of folks who'd want one. Cheers, and thanks for making a decent affordable beginner's instrument...bound to funnel more folks into the concertina habit. Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asdormire Posted August 23, 2007 Share Posted August 23, 2007 The action is a single aluminum sturcture with one or two pins that run the length of the structure and all the arms in a row pivot on that one pin...disassembly would be a nightmare as you can't undo one without undoing the whole row. Doug Sounds like the action on my old style german twenty button, except it is wood. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seanc Posted August 23, 2007 Author Share Posted August 23, 2007 I suppose...lol.. Now if I could just somebody to punch me in the shoulder each time i press a key, we'd be onto something... And at this point each time I press a key someone's eardrums break.. just like a skeet exploding. I guess the next step is "will trade guns for concertinas"... Not that I have not thought about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ragtimer Posted August 24, 2007 Share Posted August 24, 2007 We plan to offer both C/G and G/D anglos as well as treble and baritone englishes. Wim How about a Tenor EC? Maybe with the full 48 keys? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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