Starting Over

[Spectacled Warbler]

How many of us find it necessary or even useful to play in keys such as F#, Db, or even Ab?

 

 

Don't know about other countries, but in England a lot of sessions are mixed music and singing. Many singers tend to use the keys that suit their voices best rather than trying to fit in with instruments which are restricted to D, G, A etc. The sessions that I attend regularly, which are the type where people are encouraged to join in with each other's music, have songs in Eb, Db and Ab every single week and it's very useful to have a concertina that plays in these keys, albeit with a bit of finger stretching and quick thinking. Why feel excluded just because I choose not to play a stringed instrument to which a capo can be applied?

 

I've tried English, Anglo, Crane, McCann and chromatic button accordion, but the Hayden system beats them all hands down for enabling me to pick up tunes in most keys in a short space of time. Horses for courses, I suppose.

 

Joy

[Hooves]

How many of us find it necessary or even useful to play in keys such as F#, Db, or even Ab?

 

 

Don't know about other countries, but in England a lot of sessions are mixed music and singing. Many singers tend to use the keys that suit their voices best rather than trying to fit in with instruments which are restricted to D, G, A etc. The sessions that I attend regularly, which are the type where people are encouraged to join in with each other's music, have songs in Eb, Db and Ab every single week and it's very useful to have a concertina that plays in these keys, albeit with a bit of finger stretching and quick thinking. Why feel excluded just because I choose not to play a stringed instrument to which a capo can be applied?

 

I've tried English, Anglo, Crane, McCann and chromatic button accordion, but the Hayden system beats them all hands down for enabling me to pick up tunes in most keys in a short space of time. Horses for courses, I suppose.

 

Joy

 

 

Do you have the Stagi Hayden or do you have another maker?

 

So far I have only seen the Stagi and I believe Wim Wakker just announced a new run of Hayden Duets his shop is building. other than that, what Hayden system boxes are available.

[Spectacled Warbler]

Do you have the Stagi Hayden or do you have another maker?

 

So far I have only seen the Stagi and I believe Wim Wakker just announced a new run of Hayden Duets his shop is building. other than that, what Hayden system boxes are available.

 

The one I use at sessions is a Bastari 67 button, not many of these were ever made and they're not easily available. I also use a Stagi but that's not as easy to play in a couple of keys as there are fewer buttons, it also lacks some lower notes, which I like and are present on the Bastari. Neither instrument has the build quality or responsiveness of a well made concertina, but for me the layout is worth that sacrifice, until better quality instruments are more readily available.

 

Apart from Stagi and Wim Wakker, the main maker seems to be Bob Tedrow who makes a 52 button accordion reeded (I think) Hayden, his concertinas are excellent quality and sound, shame they don't have those lower notes or I'd have bought one. If I remember rightly, Dick Miles once posted in these forums that John Connor makes Haydens, don't know any more details than that. A recent c.net post from Richard Morse reported that research into a 7" hybrid Hayden continues, and the Button Box tune Stagis to concert pitch and make other improvements before selling them, I believe. Not sure if Tedrow doesn't do the same thing to Stagis he sells. Marcus concertinas in Wales were making occasional 65 button Haydens, approximately one per year when workload of their more standard instruments was reduced, but about 6 weeks ago I was told by their staff that their standard workload no longer allows this. Another shame as it had those low notes and I was on their waiting list. Harry Geuns, bandoneon maker, will apparently make a 77 button Hayden bandoneon if he can get 10 orders and I think some other top makers with with long waiting lists may also occasionally produce Haydens, but again am not sure. At least one c.net member has converted a McCann duet to a Hayden. That's all I know about suppliers and related things. Brian Hayden may know more, he posts to these forums regularly.

 

Not much choice, yet, it seems. Maybe in a few years' time.....

 

Joy

[ragtimer]

Apart from Stagi and Wim Wakker, the main maker seems to be Bob Tedrow who makes a 52 button accordion reeded (I think) Hayden, his concertinas are excellent quality and sound, shame they don't have those lower notes or I'd have bought one.

Bob Tedrow does add two buttons to the LH side -- the C# and D# missing from the bottom row. He adds these same missing notes on the RH, plus, if I recall right, the Eb and E at the top end of the RH range as well.

 

On the RH, the two bottom fill-in sharps allow for some fiddle tunes in A to be played down there. On the LH, the two extra notes allow for C# and D# diminished and A7 and B7 (rootless) chords that are very useful, more often than you might expect.

 

But not many, not even the Bastari 67, extend the RH down to Fiddle G.

The big new Wakker will, so start saving up ... and/or keep rooting for the Morse.

 

The rest of your post is very informative and accurate AFAIK. It was good to hear what became of the Marcus Hayden. --Mike K.

[Spectacled Warbler]

Cheers Mike.

 

Where's fiddle G in relation to the lowest C on the Stagi? My Bastari goes to the F below that Stagi low C (I just checked it to a tuner) and I was under the impression that this would also be the lowest note on the 65 button Wakker. If not, you've just saved me several thousand pounds, so thanks. I use those lower notes a lot - they are what attracted me to the Marcus and will probably persuade me to buy Wim's 65 button design if nobody comes up with a similar hybrid instrument within the next 2 or 3 years.

 

Please, Mr Morse... Pretty, pretty please.....

 

Joy

[David Barnert]

But not many, not even the Bastari 67, extend the RH down to Fiddle G.

Where's fiddle G in relation to the lowest C on the Stagi? My Bastari goes to the F below that Stagi low C (I just checked it to a tuner) and I was under the impression that this would also be the lowest note on the 65 button Wakker. If not, you've just saved me several thousand pounds, so thanks. I use those lower notes a lot - they are what attracted me to the Marcus and will probably persuade me to buy Wim's 65 button design if nobody comes up with a similar hybrid instrument within the next 2 or 3 years.

Read it again, Joy. He said "right hand."

 

What Mike's calling "fiddle G" (the lowest note on a fiddle) is the G right in the middle of the range of any Hayden's left hand. The left hands of both the larger Wakker and the larger Bastari go about an octave below that.

 

Even the 82-key Hayden I described here has "fiddle G" as the low note on the right and F an octave lower on the left.

[JimLucas]

What Mike's calling "fiddle G" (the lowest note on a fiddle) is the G right in the middle of the range of any Hayden's left hand. The left hands of both the larger Wakker and the larger Bastari go about an octave below that.

 

Even the 82-key Hayden I described here has "fiddle G" as the low note on the right and F an octave lower on the left.

Interesting.

 

The 71-button Maccann (Wheatstone literature says 72; for some reason they count the air button on duets, though not on English or anglo) goes down to that low F in the left hand, but down only to B below middle C in the right. The 80-button Maccann goes down to cello C (C below that low F) in the left hand and down to fiddle (or "violin" ) G in the right. That's 3 full octaves in the left hand and 3½ (the full range of a 48-button treble English) in the right, with 1½ octaves of overlap. But the only duplication on the Maccann is between hands, not the enharmonics that help to realize the Hayden's "same in any key" concept.

[inventor]

Spectacled warbler seems to have said almost all about makers. Wim Wakker is also making 65 button instruments in 2008 which do have a good number of extra notes below the usual compass on both sides, together with several repeated Abs & G#s, and Ebs & D#s, which makes them easier to play in Bb and Eb as well as the usual keys easily played on the smaller instruments (i.e. F, C, G, D, A, & E). The larger Bastaris also have repeated Dbs & C#s which made them easier to play in Ab as well; they were developed with singers in mind and also play more quietly. The Key Db is a more difficult, but then have you tried to play in Db on a Maccann!. I am in negotiation to sell the last of a large batch of these after 20 years but might be persuated to sell my personal Bastari instrument if there is any interest in this.

Steve Dickenson (Wheatstones) still makes Hayden Duets all sizes so far as I know, and Colin Dipper also definitely makes them (regret both have very long waiting lists). Connor also makes 46 button Haydens, (very solidly made real reeded concertinas), one sea captain I know uses his on Training Sailing Ships.

Congratulations to Rich Morse for making 500 concertinas, but regretfully not one Hayden, after many years of promises. "Concertinas, concertinas, everywhere, nor any one to play!" now that I might count as an "Ancient Concertinaplayer" (sorry Colleridge-Taylor)

Inventor.

[Spectacled Warbler]

Read it again, Joy. He said "right hand."

 

Whoops! Sorry about that. Must pay more attention.

 

J.

[Richard Morse]

Congratulations to Rich Morse for making 500 concertinas, but regretfully not one Hayden, after many years of promises.

Well, it isn't for lack of enthusiasm or effort - but for lack of capital! I simply don't have the money and financial support that ALL the other makers (and many players!) have. If I did then we'd be celebrating our 1000th concertina which would have included a line of concertina-reeded Haydens as well.

 

I know that this is frustrating to all you Haydenites, and it's incredibly frustrating to me to be so hampered (and to see other makers progress). The Button Box's growth/expansion is based on our profits and my personal income (very marginal). A few thousand dollars a year just doesn't cut it when it comes to the amount of R&D and machinery needed to get into new ventures.

 

I know you all support the *idea* of more concertinas - Haydens included, but support needs to be a lot more than the promise of buying a concertina. I've been seeking serious funding for years which has resulted in only one offer (a modest beginning - thank you!). At this rate it may be many more years before we get our Haydens out there. That's just the way things are... unless a major philanthropist comes forward... or a number of smaller contributors to the cause. Any of you out there versed in grant writing? Business planning? Serious machinists? There are many ways to help.

 

And no, were not sitting on our duffs. We *are* moving forward... as we are able. But I am only one impecunious guy with a boot-strap business - and given that I think we're doing very well! But given *only* that, I can only do what I can.

 

-- Rich --

(in name only)

[Spectacled Warbler]

And no, were not sitting on our duffs. We *are* moving forward... as we are able. But I am only one impecunious guy with a boot-strap business - and given that I think we're doing very well! But given *only* that, I can only do what I can.

 

-- Rich --

(in name only)

 

And a huge 'Thank you' for what you have done so far. Your work has certainly made our household a better place to live. Good luck for the future and hope you get the funds to realise your ambitions.

 

Apologies for thread creep.

 

Joy

[ragtimer]

Cheers Mike.

 

Where's fiddle G in relation to the lowest C on the Stagi? My Bastari goes to the F below that Stagi low C (I just checked it to a tuner) and I was under the impression that this would also be the lowest note on the 65 button Wakker. If not, you've just saved me several thousand pounds, so thanks. I use those lower notes a lot - they are what attracted me to the Marcus and will probably persuade me to buy Wim's 65 button design if nobody comes up with a similar hybrid instrument within the next 2 or 3 years.

By now you know that Fiddle G is the G below the Stagi's low C (Middle C) on the RH side. (Thanks, David!)

 

The Bastari 67 tina and bandoneon extended the LH down to G or F# below the Tenor C of a Stagi's LH, but did not extend the RH except adding a low Bb (no B natural). The Bastaris seemed to aim mostly at enabling one to play in flat keys, as with wind instruments. I like that, but it doesn't help much with the "trad" keys.

 

The Russian Hayden, that didn't quite make it (there was a thread aobut that) also brought both sides down to their respective G notes, if I recall right.

 

The new Wakker 65 WILL extend both the RH down to FIddle G and the LH down half an octave below the Stagi. It is the most nearly perfect Hayden yet offered. It achieves this by not adding so many "flat" buttons as the Bastari 67 did, and instead puts those buttons to use extending the low end of the RH.

 

It is well worth the several thousands of pounds/Euro/Dollars -- but I wish Wim would consider a mid-range hybrid job of similar size.

 

Though as my left hand weakens with age, I might go to a Tedrow 52-key just to get the lighter, easier action.

Please, Mr Morse... Pretty, pretty please.....

Joy

Now there's where I'd really prefer to get a hybrid, 65-or-so-key job. Let's be patient and keep encouraging Rich, without leaning on him too hard

--Mike K.

Edited September 13, 2007 by ragtimer

[m3838]

Now there's where I'd really prefer to get a hybrid, 65-or-so-key job. Let's be patient and keep encouraging Rich, without leaning on him too hard

--Mike K.

 

He needs to marry a millionaire. That seems to be the only option.

Other than that I think the cheaper and reasonable enough approach is to adapt existing instruments' bodies and transpose them into whatever. No special machines needed and supply of used bandoneon/chemnitzers is large.

I'd use new Weltmeister reeds, they seem to be inexpensive and good, and put them into some Bandoneon's body.

If you want Hayden - you'll get one. Now a begger can't choose, so this Hayden will not be 6-sided, with small buttons and fancy end work, but who said it should? It may or may not have double, triple, single voice, accordion-like or "concertina"-like.

If we are into looks, and want to be wanna-bis, we better have the money.

If we don't have the money, then we shouldn't be obsessed with such periphernalia as "riveted action", "Concertina reeds", "bushings" etc.

If we just want toys, which is not wrong by any means, then I'm afraid, for craftsmen like Rich Morse, such desires may or may not be persuasive enough.

Now, imagine this:

is Hayden Concertina.

Who's for it?

Edited September 13, 2007 by m3838

[JimLucas]

Though as my left hand weakens with age, I might go to a Tedrow 52-key just to get the lighter, easier action.

 

Now, imagine this:

is Hayden Concertina.

Two very different desires or points of view, methinks.

[m3838]

Don't put want and compromize agaiinst each other. It's great to have choices (and the money).

I personally would like to try some refurbished Bandoneon with better layout, but solely for the sound of double reeds.

Crane, Hayden, McCann - all look good to me, as far as it is not traditional hap-hazard Bandoneon.

You can't fit all with one size, but the question is:

Who would be willing to buy 4.5 octave range Hayden Duet, based on Bandoneon body, double or single voice, NOW, for $1300? Weltmeister reeds, somewhat compromized geometric regularity of the layout, alluminium reedplates, wooden action, large bellows and a bit scoffed appearance. In great playing condition. With the promise of upgrade to "real" one.

I think there is a niche for some, even marginal, profit.

May be I'm the only one.

I've started the poll.

Edited September 13, 2007 by m3838

[ragtimer]

Don't put want and compromize agaiinst each other. It's great to have choices (and the money).

I personally would like to try some refurbished Bandoneon with better layout, but solely for the sound of double reeds.

Yes, i would like to have a choice between a Hayden with lots of notes and range and extra voices,

versus a nice light small instrument with easy light action, which I may be restricted to in a year or so.

 

FWIW, any day now should arrive my Hayden 67-key "bandoneon" with M+H reeds. Yes I like the bandoneon sound, but mostly I want the extra range and above all, the wrap-around accidentals.

 

I'm hoping my left hand will have the strength to play it. It can't have much harder button action than my Stagi

Crane, Hayden, McCann - all look good to me, as far as it is not traditional hap-hazard Bandoneon.

You can't fit all with one size, but the question is:

Who would be willing to buy 4.5 octave range Hayden Duet, based on Bandoneon body, double or single voice, NOW, for $1300? Weltmeister reeds, somewhat compromized geometric regularity of the layout, alluminium reedplates, wooden action, large bellows and a bit scoffed appearance. In great playing condition. With the promise of upgrade to "real" one.

I think there is a niche for some, even marginal, profit.

May be I'm the only one.

I've started the poll.

I'll look for that poll. And answer "yes".

Are you proposing to start a business converting old bandos and Chemtnitzers?

The photo shows a bando with only 4 rows of keys -- a proper Hayden will need at least 5 rows to extend the range. Not that a 46-key equivalent in bandoneon form and voicing wouldn't be a blast to play!

Won't Crane or Maccann also need more rows?

 

I've already looked thru my pics of bandos/chemmie scrounged off eBay, looking for some with more than 4 rows. I think I spotted one with 5.

 

$1300 is very reasonable. And you could charge extra for features, such as:

L+M+H bass LH, M+M+H (wet tuning) RH, register switches, etc. -- all inherited from the original isntrument. --Mike K.

[m3838]

I'm not into this business myself - I'll starve the first day, given my skills and market needs.

But perhabs some makers might be interested, if I show them the number of potential buyers.

Harry Geuns, for one, would love to look into it. He thinks in terms of seasoned craftsman: -"give me 10 orders, I'll turn out brand new instrument, specifically designed for it." Price is high though. So perhabs an intermediate, temporary solution may be reasonable. (nothing lasts longer, then temporary solutions)

Some small local accordion repairers may be interested too. They mostly backlogged with PA repairs, but who knows, if not-so-hard-to-make "hybrid" will bring some cash.

I sketched some layouts, and it looks like Crane and Hayden are pretty easy to configure. Sure, the rows will have slants, where original design doesn't, but nobody said original design is perfect. Besides, anything seems to be better than 142 voice push/pull Bandoneon, with not all notes doubled, so you 'have' to learn two keyboards plus some additions, unique only to your instrument. Crane actually is more efficient, but Hayden is good too. 4 or 5 rows. Even 4 rows give 4.5 octaves range! Bigger than my Morse!

What's wrong with your left hend? It's not necessary to pump bellows with left hand, I think. Perhabs you can rest one end on left knee and work the bellows on the right?

Oh yea, btw, for those out there, who thinks light and easy Anglo is better for you - beware of that treacherous palm rest, it pushes right where the nerve is. I had some interesting problem with 20 button Lachenal. Stopped even touching it for 6 months!