Starting Over

[Rick Austin]

Of course, before I discovered concertina.net I purchased a slightly used Stagi Hayden Duet online. It does everything it's supposed to, there's not a thing wrong with it, except this: it's damned hard work to play. OK, so I admit it. It wasn't the ideal instrument for a beginner. I don't want to give up on playing, but I would like something that's not such a bear to make music with. I'd be happy to begin again learning English and the lovely people at Button Box have said they'd provide some trade-in value for me. They have the Jack/Jackie and also some new/used Bastari A-48s. Given your collective wisdom, O Concertina Netizens, which of these would be the better instrument for starting over? A significant detail is that I live in a rather remote town in which lessons from others may be unlikely at best. I do, however, have some musical training: I've studied guitar, voice and piano for over 20 years.

 

Many thanks in advance for your advice.

 

Rick, who sometimes makes mistakes

[ragtimer]

Of course, before I discovered concertina.net I purchased a slightly used Stagi Hayden Duet online. It does everything it's supposed to, there's not a thing wrong with it, except this: it's damned hard work to play. OK, so I admit it. It wasn't the ideal instrument for a beginner. I don't want to give up on playing, but I would like something that's not such a bear to make music with.

Rick, I'd be interested in hearing what was hard to play about he Stagi Hayden -- buton action, stiff bellows, lots of hard squeezing to get a good tone out of the reeds, or jsut the Hayden system itself? Or the Duet concept itself? Maybe the expectation that you would be playign melody and chords both at the same time?

I'd be happy to begin again learning English and the lovely people at Button Box have said they'd provide some trade-in value for me. They have the Jack/Jackie and also some new/used Bastari A-48s. Given your collective wisdom, O Concertina Netizens, which of these would be the better instrument for starting over?

The Button Box people are indeed lovely to deal with!

I don't have direct experience with these tinas, but from what I read here, the Jackie may have easier, more responsive action. And the slower response of the deep-toned reeds of the Jack may frustrate you when jsut learning.

A significant detail is that I live in a rather remote town in which lessons from others may be unlikely at best.

Applies to most of us outside of Western Mass. or the UK

I do, however, have some musical training: I've studied guitar, voice and piano for over 20 years.

A very good background for teaching yourself Duet -- really.

--Mike K.

[Boney]

My Stagi Hayden is the same way. It just takes quite a bit of force to open and close it, I presume because the reeds don't speak easily. The bellows are quite supple and move easily when one end is off. The springs on the buttons also have too much resistance. As I've said before, when I switch from the Stagi to my Wakker anglo, it feels like there's nothing but air between my hands in comparison. I can't play much longer than half an hour at a time on the Stagi before my hands start getting tired. It may have broken in a little over the past year, but I still find it unpleasant to play. Maybe I'm just spoiled.

Edited August 16, 2007 by Boney

[Rick Austin]

Boney,

 

It has seemed to me to be more of a contraption than an instrument. Playing a contraption isn't much fun and frankly, I want to have fun learning and playing the concertina.

 

Thanks for the feedback.

 

Rick

[Dana Johnson]

Boney,

 

It has seemed to me to be more of a contraption than an instrument. Playing a contraption isn't much fun and frankly, I want to have fun learning and playing the concertina.

 

Thanks for the feedback.

 

Rick

I used to own a Bastari Hayden, which while a far sight from a good instrument was still not hard to play at all. I learned a lot of fun tunes on it before I converted a big McCann to Hayden. I'm curious as to what Stagi did to the instrument when they took over the company to make it so much worse to play.

 

I find it is worth making a good investment in a musical instument. A "starter" instrument like the Jackie will do the job for a while, but won't give you half the playing satisfaction of a more expenisve instrument. Skip that and go for the Albion or something equivalent. You'll still get your trade in, and you will find the reward of playing a better instrument will dramatically increase your learning rate. and if you decide it isn't for you, you will get real money back for it since the demand is very good for these instruments. I have a student with a Rochelle, which as far as I can tell is the Anglo equivalent of the Jackie, and while it gets the job done, I always wince a bit to watch her work against the over large instrument and it's slow response. A beginner shouldn' have to fight the instrument as well as the difficulty of developing the skills in the first place.

[David Barnert]

I used to own a Bastari Hayden... I'm curious as to what Stagi did to the instrument when they took over the company to make it so much worse to play.

Dana-

 

See my report here. It starts just below the picture of the Stagi. The Bastari and the Stagi are two whole different animals, and I found the Bastari much more fun to play than the Stagi (despite the fact that on rereading the report, I see that I described the Stagi as "fun to play" six years ago).

[jonmac]

Boney,

 

It has seemed to me to be more of a contraption than an instrument. Playing a contraption isn't much fun and frankly, I want to have fun learning and playing the concertina.

 

Thanks for the feedback.

 

Rick

I used to own a Bastari Hayden, which while a far sight from a good instrument was still not hard to play at all. I learned a lot of fun tunes on it before I converted a big McCann to Hayden. I'm curious as to what Stagi did to the instrument when they took over the company to make it so much worse to play.

 

I find it is worth making a good investment in a musical instument. A "starter" instrument like the Jackie will do the job for a while, but won't give you half the playing satisfaction of a more expenisve instrument. Skip that and go for the Albion or something equivalent. You'll still get your trade in, and you will find the reward of playing a better instrument will dramatically increase your learning rate. and if you decide it isn't for you, you will get real money back for it since the demand is very good for these instruments. I have a student with a Rochelle, which as far as I can tell is the Anglo equivalent of the Jackie, and while it gets the job done, I always wince a bit to watch her work against the over large instrument and it's slow response. A beginner shouldn' have to fight the instrument as well as the difficulty of developing the skills in the first place.

 

I would have to agree with the above - the Jackie, while an excellent starter for minimal cost - and endorsed by the mighty AA himself (a good sound but hard work) - for a mere ten times the cost (!) I'd go for a Morse Albion - light weight, fast and very playable. It might lose out a little in "sweetness" to a damn good Vintage instrument - but what you lose on the sound you'll probably gain on the action.

Kind regards

Jon

NB: I have 2 Morse instruments plus vintage - and I normall play the Morse

[seanc]

Just tag off of this thread..

I just received a Stagi Hayden this week. I have been playing a Rochelle and wanted to try a bit nicer tina/ different system.

So far my impressions are that the system is very nice, well thought out, very logical. at this point I am able to play a unison major scale with both hands. The tone is nice, very warm sounding, others may say muted.

 

 

With that being said, I now have an inkling what a "fast" instrument is. the rochelle is like lightning in comparison. It does seems like the reeds are substantially slower and you definitely need to work to get some sound out of it. maybe this is normal maybe it isn't.

 

So, In my mind the jury is still out I might keep it, I might not. Depending on what happens in the short term, maybe I will be looking to trade this and give an english a try. Or sell it and put the $$ towards a step up Anglo, leaning towards a Tedrow...

[Rick Austin]

This is all most helpful. Thanks again, folks. I appreciate your willingness to pitch your two cents in, or your nickel or dime, as the case may be.

 

Rick

[m3838]

This is all most helpful. Thanks again, folks. I appreciate your willingness to pitch your two cents in, or your nickel or dime, as the case may be.

 

Rick

 

I noticed you have Tango Nuevo as your musical interest (and the jazz from the 40es). Are you going to apply your future skills towards that?

The reason of asking (besides 90% of nosy curiousity) is that those styles have established set of instruments. A concertina is clearly out of the circle.

And btw, have you checked your personal messages? I have sent you a PM, suggesting to look at Crane Duet system.

I think that of all instruments in Concertina Family, Crane Duet may fit your musical interests better.

[ragtimer]

Just tag off of this thread..

I just received a Stagi Hayden this week. I have been playing a Rochelle and wanted to try a bit nicer tina/ different system.

So far my impressions are that the system is very nice, well thought out, very logical. at this point I am able to play a unison major scale with both hands. The tone is nice, very warm sounding, others may say muted.

 

 

With that being said, I now have an inkling what a "fast" instrument is. the rochelle is like lightning in comparison. It does seems like the reeds are substantially slower and you definitely need to work to get some sound out of it. maybe this is normal maybe it isn't.

 

So, In my mind the jury is still out I might keep it, I might not. Depending on what happens in the short term, maybe I will be looking to trade this and give an english a try. Or sell it and put the $$ towards a step up Anglo, leaning towards a Tedrow...

I like my Stagi Hayden, tho the action is a bit hard to push and does wear loose with time.

I don't have much else that's better to compare it to.

 

No need to give up the Hayden, though ...

If you like the Hayden System, remember that Bob Tedrow makes not just Anglos, but also a very fine Hayden, with 6 extra buttons. I don't know what his waiting period would be for a Hayden, but Tedrow comes in at a good hybrid price point.

 

FWIW, I plan to borrow an English from a local musician and see whether I could ever learn to play it.

[seanc]

One thing that does stike me, though. And I assume that all of this model should have the same trait. Is that it really sounds to my ears much more like a clarinet or a sax than anything else. Very nice mellow warm and wooden/ reedy. If this is a good or bad thing is, as yet, undetermined. But it seems to open up some interesting options as far as types of music this could fit nicely into.

[ragtimer]

One thing that does stike me, though. And I assume that all of this model should have the same trait. Is that it really sounds to my ears much more like a clarinet or a sax than anything else. Very nice mellow warm and wooden/ reedy. If this is a good or bad thing is, as yet, undetermined. But it seems to open up some interesting options as far as types of music this could fit nicely into.

Interesting observation (about the Stagi Hayden, I assume), and I'll back you up somewhat.

 

Years ago I heard 5 saxes playing in close harmony, and to me it sounded a lot like a reed organ (foot pumped, free reeds). A mellow saxophone does have sort of a free-reed sound, and now that I think about it, my Hayden is a little like a sax -- a very expressive instrument, BTW.

 

Not like a clarinet IMHO tho, with its hollow, very woody sound. --Mike K.

[Hooves]

You had the right idea, just the wrong box.

 

Ok, here is my 2 cents and you may through it in the gutter if you like (as most people here do...).

 

My first box was a chinese 30 button anglo, no successs at all with this box, discouraging at best.

 

my 2nd box was an English chinese junko, equally diifuclt to get my head around, though the anglo I had more success with.

 

My thrid box was a German anglo, ah finally concertina sound, but only 20 buttons, and no tune mastery to speak of. This box was very light, and plays pretty good despite ahvign german wooden action.

 

My fourth box was/is a 46 button MaCaan duet: this is when my concertinma playing turned 180 degrees and I started makign music. I too come from a guitar (and Octave mandolin) background. To me, the Macaan Duet made so much more sense and was so much eaiser for me to get my Guitar-brain around then either the Anglo or the English.

 

My Fifth and Favorite box is a new comer - recently I aquired a 48 Button Crane Duet, paid an arm and a leg for it, but it was worth it. Beutifully restored, in concert pitch, wonderful bellows. I have had my box less than a week and I already am reading music for it (mind you I have studied music for over 20 years).

 

My opinion is the Duets are the best boxes, not neccesarily the macCaan or the Hayden, but I think I have found my niche in the Crane Duet. (however the MaCcaan still holds a place in my heart, and, um , pocketbook...).

 

So, carry on young box player, get that duet and amaze your friends and yourself. It took 3 years to get my Crane, wish I could go back in time and start there!

[SteveP]

I too come from a guitar (and Octave mandolin) background. To me, the Macaan Duet made so much more sense and was so much eaiser for me to get my Guitar-brain around then either the Anglo or the English.

 

My Fifth and Favorite box is a new comer - recently I aquired a 48 Button Crane Duet, paid an arm and a leg for it, but it was worth it. Beutifully restored, in concert pitch, wonderful bellows. I have had my box less than a week and I already am reading music for it (mind you I have studied music for over 20 years).

 

My opinion is the Duets are the best boxes, not neccesarily the macCaan or the Hayden, but I think I have found my niche in the Crane Duet.

An interesting point, and one which I think I would probably agree with, if only I could get MY hands on a Crane. I played guitar for years, and then tried to learn the English. While my left hand (used to playing chords) could fly from button to button with ease, my right hand (which only ever strummed or did simple repeated picking) struggled to keep up. I think the stupid right hand might just manage some melodies if the notes were in some sort of logical order, so my hunt for a Crane is on...

[Hooves]

An interesting point, and one which I think I would probably agree with, if only I could get MY hands on a Crane. I played guitar for years, and then tried to learn the English. While my left hand (used to playing chords) could fly from button to button with ease, my right hand (which only ever strummed or did simple repeated picking) struggled to keep up. I think the stupid right hand might just manage some melodies if the notes were in some sort of logical order, so my hunt for a Crane is on...

 

 

One nice thing about the Crane is the center row will look very famaliar to guitar players, as the first 4 notes are the same as a guitar in standard tuning (EADG...) however the pattern continues in fourths.

 

Now that I have been playing box, my right hand is getting better. In the last few months I have been watching guitar players on YouTube, Michael Hedges is a great example of using both hands on guitar, but as for me coming from a mandolin background before palying guitar, I mostly flatpick, and only finger pick a few songs. Nowdays I play in alot of alternate tunings (DADGAD, Open E, Low C), and in these tunings finger picking makes the instrument jump alive.

 

There are some drawbacks to the Crane system as the pattern begins to deterioate since you can't just keep goign up in fourths without hitting some accidentals, and on the Crane all acidentals are on the outer buttons (for example, C# is to the left of C natural, making it go higher to lower towards the cenetr row, but, once you hit the B, the note to the left is Bb, going lower to the left, and the same holds for the E and A on the left column.)

 

The pattern in the inner rows, C E D for example, this pattern is repeated up the 3 central rows, and it works great for C, but I have not tried to play anything in any other keys than C, D, and F.

 

For other keys, this may prove a bit harder to work out, for example in Db, but mostly I play my tunes in the popular keys of C, D, E, F, G, A (we guitar players are lucky we can shift position easily)

 

I have read that the strength of the Hayden system is that you finger all keys the same way so transposing is a breeze, but I have not had a chance to try it out as I'm focusing my resources on English made boxes (except my Diatonic Button accordion, thats a fine instrument of Italian origin). If I can find one in a few months cheap enough to deal with the quality, then I will give the Hayden system a shot.

 

I got my 48b Crane after scrounging Ebay listings for over 2 years, a really nice Brass reeded 55 key came up several months ago, but I missed that one and it went for a song. Finally, I broke down and bought a restored Lachenal and I'm glad I did. Mine was built possibly around 1910.

 

One last thing, my Crane is slightly bigger than a standard box (its 6.5" across the flats), however I find it easier to hit the buttons on this box than on my standard sized MaCaan since you aren't strecthing as far to the side. With 1 chromatic octave on the left side, and 2 on the right, I think its got a pretty good range and will serve me well.

[ragtimer]

For other keys, this may prove a bit harder to work out, for example in Db, but mostly I play my tunes in the popular keys of C, D, E, F, G, A (we guitar players are lucky we can shift position easily)

 

I have read that the strength of the Hayden system is that you finger all keys the same way so transposing is a breeze, but I have not had a chance to try it out as I'm focusing my resources on English made boxes (except my Diatonic Button accordion, thats a fine instrument of Italian origin). If I can find one in a few months cheap enough to deal with the quality, then I will give the Hayden system a shot.

You will find the Hayden system very logical and consistent. Although no sharp or flat is close to its natural's button, there is a standard direction from a natural to either accidental. The Hayden is like the other Duets insofar as the natural notes are up the middle (3 and 4 columns wide) and the "black" notes are on the sides. Not by design, but that's how it works out.

 

One warning: The Hayden hype about "playing in all keys" is just that. Trying to play in Db will really stretch your hands and train your pinky! HOWEVER, the 46-button Hayden plays well in the keys you named -- F, C, G, D, A, and E. In fact, you can instantly transpose among those keys. The 46 is made with mostly sharps and only a few flats, biased toward "string" keys.

 

Hope you get a chance to tinker with a Hayden soon -- Mike K.

[JimLucas]

One warning: The Hayden hype about "playing in all keys" is just that. Trying to play in Db will really stretch your hands and train your pinky! HOWEVER, the 46-button Hayden plays well in the keys you named -- F, C, G, D, A, and E. In fact, you can instantly transpose among those keys. The 46 is made with mostly sharps and only a few flats, biased toward "string" keys.

It's also hype in another sense:

How many of us find it necessary or even useful to play in keys such as F#, Db, or even Ab? (Maybe more of us should be playing jazz?) Or tried to -- or even wanted to -- modulate a traditional tune by a half step. (I suppose that if you wanted to commit a novel form of suicide, you could try that in an Irish session.

)